NCAA Men’s Freestyle Wrestling

[blueandgold]

I’m realizing it won’t happen ever unless there were a perfect storm of events that directly affected the top in a way that created chaos within programs and revenue streams. In my opinion, it would take a number of Aaron Pico-like situations where top recruits are actively skipping collegiate competition to focus on freestyle or a situation similar to Amit Elor where athletes attend non-wrestling schools to receive education but still train freestyle full time. For example, say Bo Bassett or Jax Forrest were to opt out of collegiate competition and attend a school like UCLA or USC for higher learning but to also train in freestyle in the LA-area full-time with Valentin Kalika. Enough of those events would cause a seismic shift to the wrestling landscape that would require attention from premier programs and ultimately change from within. 

[Lleynor]

Ask anyone that wrestles if they would give up their NCAA title for an Oly Gold, 100% would say yes. 

I'd love to see some of these guys go that route, and pursue FS from Day 1.

[boconnell]

2 minutes ago, Lleynor said:

Ask anyone that wrestles if they would give up their NCAA title for an Oly Gold, 100% would say yes. 

I'd love to see some of these guys go that route, and pursue FS from Day 1.

Why would anyone need to give up their NCAA title for an Olympic gold?  What possible benefit could there be to giving up the title?  Pico is the last guy mentioned and he fell down the ladder the further he got away from his decision to pass up wrestling in college.  Our young guys are better than ever, and there is zero to suggest that folkstyle wrestling is holding them back.

[Lleynor]

Zain was a World Champion at their age as well. And he became an all timer in college. Granted, he did win a World Title, but in a non-Olympic weight. He didn't do well at all in his Oly debut. 

I said this about the two because it doesn't always translate over. I'd rather see us dominant Internationally than seeing some Freshman win a college Title again. 

[alex1fly]

You might be on to something there OP.  Watch, Bassett will eliminate every school from his list lol

[boconnell]

11 hours ago, Lleynor said:

Zain was a World Champion at their age as well. And he became an all timer in college. Granted, he did win a World Title, but in a non-Olympic weight. He didn't do well at all in his Oly debut. 

I said this about the two because it doesn't always translate over. I'd rather see us dominant Internationally than seeing some Freshman win a college Title again. 

You're right Zain Retherford was only a World champ and not an Olympic champ.  If you think that's a great point about how our system isn't working and somehow dominating internationally is at cross purposes with winning college titles, then there's no point discussing it further.  

 

[blueandgold]

11 hours ago, boconnell said:

Why would anyone need to give up their NCAA title for an Olympic gold?  What possible benefit could there be to giving up the title?  Pico is the last guy mentioned and he fell down the ladder the further he got away from his decision to pass up wrestling in college.  Our young guys are better than ever, and there is zero to suggest that folkstyle wrestling is holding them back.

I think this would be because when you look at how training freestyle consistently has paid off for the U.S. women, the men could/would be more eager to follow suit. Amit Elor is an Olympic champion at 20 years old and won a senior world championship at 18 just a few months after graduating high school. While she could wrestle at the collegiate level for an NCAA program, there would be no benefit. She attends a public community college in her home state and trains for her sport full time and it seems to be doing her pretty well. If the larger goal is freestyle or Greco wrestling at the international level, I could see some guys bypass college altogether as four years spent doing a different style with potential of injury among other things doesn’t seem ideal.

[Fletcher]

US should flex our diplomatic muscles and make the rest of the world bend to us. No reason we can't make everyone else start wrestling folkstyle and cut off international aid if they don't. 

[ionel]

37 minutes ago, blueandgold said:

I think this would be because when you look at how training freestyle consistently has paid off for the U.S. women ...

You do realize its a fairly new sport and strength/technique issues are completely different for women.  

[Caveira]

47 minutes ago, blueandgold said:

I think this would be because when you look at how training freestyle consistently has paid off for the U.S. women, the men could/would be more eager to follow suit. Amit Elor is an Olympic champion at 20 years old and won a senior world championship at 18 just a few months after graduating high school. While she could wrestle at the collegiate level for an NCAA program, there would be no benefit. She attends a public community college in her home state and trains for her sport full time and it seems to be doing her pretty well. If the larger goal is freestyle or Greco wrestling at the international level, I could see some guys bypass college altogether as four years spent doing a different style with potential of injury among other things doesn’t seem ideal.

Do you think comparing women’s wrestling to men’s is a fair comparison?  

[blueandgold]

20 minutes ago, Caveira said:

Do you think comparing women’s wrestling to men’s is a fair comparison?  

Yes. They both wrestle folkstyle in high school and freestyle at the international level. One has a greater emphasis on freestyle, though, and the results show. Folkstyle being an institution in American wrestling at this point and longtime practitioners and fans of it being resistant to change doesn’t negate the fact that women are developing in freestyle much better because it’s been their sole focus for the most part at every level despite the four month high school season. The best folkstyle wrestlers have also advocated for the NCAA to transition to freestyle including Jordan Burroughs, Kyle Dake, and Yianni Diakomihalis to make the same kind of development.

[blueandgold]

34 minutes ago, ionel said:

You do realize its a fairly new sport and strength/technique issues are completely different for women.  

Freestyle wrestling is freestyle wrestling. The men don’t wrestle the women and vice versa. Not sure I’m following what you mean.

Edited August 23 by blueandgold

[Jim L]

1 hour ago, blueandgold said:

I think this would be because when you look at how training freestyle consistently has paid off for the U.S. women, the men could/would be more eager to follow suit. Amit Elor is an Olympic champion at 20 years old and won a senior world championship at 18 just a few months after graduating high school. While she could wrestle at the collegiate level for an NCAA program, there would be no benefit. She attends a public community college in her home state and trains for her sport full time and it seems to be doing her pretty well. If the larger goal is freestyle or Greco wrestling at the international level, I could see some guys bypass college altogether as four years spent doing a different style with potential of injury among other things doesn’t seem ideal.

Henry Cejudo agrees

[blueandgold]

Just now, Jim L said:

Henry Cejudo agrees

He might be the best example. Arizona and Colorado state champion who immediately went to freestyle after high school, beat an NCAA Champion in his senior debut at 18 years old and went on to beat several D1 standouts before he won the gold in Beijing 2008. Imagine he went the traditional route, redshirted in 2007, competed as a starter somewhere from 2008-11, and then transitioned to freestyle. He may have never reached the height he did and looking at Beat the Streets 2012, Cejudo in that Olympic year was a far cry from Cejudo in 2008.

[ionel]

16 minutes ago, blueandgold said:

Freestyle wrestling is freestyle wrestling. The men don’t wrestle the women and vice versa. Not sure I’m following what you mean.

So you are suggesting it doesn't take any time to learn freestyle and become the best?  

[Wildcat92]

Nothing will change at the college level.  If a handful of truly elite HS kids forego college to focus on freestyle, the universities will just recruit the kids at a level below them.  Will the college product be as "good" without those random elites that forego college?  Yes it will.

[blueandgold]

24 minutes ago, ionel said:

So you are suggesting it doesn't take any time to learn freestyle and become the best?  

I’m not suggesting that at all. I never said that. You’re suggesting that and I’m not even sure where you pulled that from. You said it was a fairly new sport meaning that women just started competing in freestyle as it was recognized by the Olympics starting in 2004, meaning that in 20 years, women in the U.S. have been developing in a sport the men had a head start on and in the most recent Olympic Games outperformed the men. If anything, that goes against your point. Even if it is new to women, the sport of freestyle wrestling remains the same. Same rules, same techniques, etc. If there were a difference, Helen Maroulis and Victoria Anthony wouldn’t host clinics that also teach boys and men freestyle techniques. Most boys wrestle freestyle from a young age and through high school in the spring and summer, the women have just found a way to cater to it at the collegiate level and it incentivizes girls to focus on it more than the boys who remain in Folkstyle as men in college.

[blueandgold]

17 minutes ago, Wildcat92 said:

Nothing will change at the college level.  If a handful of truly elite HS kids forego college to focus on freestyle, the universities will just recruit the kids at a level below them.  Will the college product be as "good" without those random elites that forego college?  Yes it will.

You can’t minimize elites down to being “random.” Elites are elites and elites equal revenue. Sure the Folkstyle wrestling will remain good, nobody is denying that, but the final say is revenue. If Iowa, Penn State, Ohio State, and Oklahoma State start missing out on revenue because people would rather see a group of 17/18-year-old kids go up against some of the stiffest competition in the world on a frequent basis, then something will change. Money is a force to be reckoned with and when kids start signing deals with brands while pursuing their Olympic dreams, it’ll cause the NCAA to change and might even bring some dead programs back.

[Wildcat92]

55 minutes ago, blueandgold said:

You can’t minimize elites down to being “random.” Elites are elites and elites equal revenue. Sure the Folkstyle wrestling will remain good, nobody is denying that, but the final say is revenue. If Iowa, Penn State, Ohio State, and Oklahoma State start missing out on revenue because people would rather see a group of 17/18-year-old kids go up against some of the stiffest competition in the world on a frequent basis, then something will change. Money is a force to be reckoned with and when kids start signing deals with brands while pursuing their Olympic dreams, it’ll cause the NCAA to change and might even bring some dead programs back.

I'm not minimizing elites down to being random.  I'm saying every now and then (randomly) we will have an elite HS kid not go to college.  We will still have "elite" NCAA wrestlers.

NCAA didn't miss a beat when Cejudo, Pico skipped college.  College wrestling will be just fine.  I don't think Iowa or PSU will close up shop because a Bo Basset type kid opts to go the international route right out of HS

[blueandgold]

1 minute ago, Wildcat92 said:

I'm not minimizing elites down to being random.  I'm saying every now and then (randomly) we will have an elite HS kid not go to college.  We will still have "elite" NCAA wrestlers.

NCAA didn't miss a beat when Cejudo, Pico skipped college.  College wrestling will be just fine.  I don't think Iowa or PSU will close up shop because a Bo Basset type kid opts to go the international route right out of HS

Okay, I get what you’re saying, but what I’m saying is that if the Cejudo/Pico route becomes a trend, then there’s trouble. Of course, one or two people won’t shift anything, but if a good portion of top recruits year after year begin to do such, that’s when there’s a problem. Say, it’s 2-3 the first year, 4-8 the next, 10-15 after that, and then 20-25, and so on. Relating back to my original post, it would create chaos at the top because it’s not like you would be missing out on one guy, you would be missing out on several and when it becomes a trend, change has to take place so programs don’t lose out.

[Lleynor]

1 hour ago, Wildcat92 said:

I'm not minimizing elites down to being random.  I'm saying every now and then (randomly) we will have an elite HS kid not go to college.  We will still have "elite" NCAA wrestlers.

NCAA didn't miss a beat when Cejudo, Pico skipped college.  College wrestling will be just fine.  I don't think Iowa or PSU will close up shop because a Bo Basset type kid opts to go the international route right out of HS

No one is saying College Wrestling won't be fine. It obviously will. I'll still support it, and still continue going to each Championship. 

However, I do wish we'd dominate at the International level better. I look at Lee, and think what could've been. He got a Silver in his first International big-level tourney, at age 25 to a Veteran-level Beast, at 28. He was the can't miss future of American Wrestling, and is just now at the Senior level shooting his shot. 

I just want to see our elite be elite longer. 

[ionel]

3 hours ago, blueandgold said:

I’m not suggesting that at all. I never said that. You’re suggesting that and I’m not even sure where you pulled that from. You said it was a fairly new sport meaning that women just started competing in freestyle as it was recognized by the Olympics starting in 2004, meaning that in 20 years, women in the U.S. have been developing in a sport the men had a head start on and in the most recent Olympic Games outperformed the men. If anything, that goes against your point. Even if it is new to women, the sport of freestyle wrestling remains the same. Same rules, same techniques, etc. If there were a difference, Helen Maroulis and Victoria Anthony wouldn’t host clinics that also teach boys and men freestyle techniques. Most boys wrestle freestyle from a young age and through high school in the spring and summer, the women have just found a way to cater to it at the collegiate level and it incentivizes girls to focus on it more than the boys who remain in Folkstyle as men in college.

Why are the Russians so good at it in men's? 

[boconnell]

3 hours ago, blueandgold said:

Okay, I get what you’re saying, but what I’m saying is that if the Cejudo/Pico route becomes a trend, then there’s trouble. Of course, one or two people won’t shift anything, but if a good portion of top recruits year after year begin to do such, that’s when there’s a problem. Say, it’s 2-3 the first year, 4-8 the next, 10-15 after that, and then 20-25, and so on. Relating back to my original post, it would create chaos at the top because it’s not like you would be missing out on one guy, you would be missing out on several and when it becomes a trend, change has to take place so programs don’t lose out.

There is zero chance of this happening.  

There are 6 male FS olympians every 4 years.  The idea that 20-25 recruits a year would skip college wrestling to pursue those spots is absurd.  You are inventing a fairy tale and then arguing what might happen if that fairy tale happens.

[CHROMEBIRD]

Where was this discussion when JB, DT, Dake, Snyder, Gable, Gilman, Green, Yianni, Cox, etc. were bringing home international medals? Call me a cynic, but I don't think it makes any difference whether the NCAA adopts free or folk.

Imo, the US Men's Soccer team is a pretty good analogue for US MFS. Fans used to say that our soccer team wasn't successful at the Olympics and World Cup because we had insufficient youth development and didn't play an "international style" to compete with Euro & LATAM teams. Well, that's been fixed for a few generations now and US Men's Soccer still doesn't get the results, so now we cast blame at our coaching, the officiating, media coverage, VAR, travel,  everything else. It's easy to imagine the same thing happening to USA Wrestling if we change to freestyle, as if it was some sort of panacea, and don't dominate the medal table. 

Maybe, like soccer, it's just a highly developed sport globally with a lot of parity at the highest level? Re-wrestle the same Olympics brackets and no one would be surprised if we took 0 or 5 golds in MFS.

[blueandgold]

3 hours ago, ionel said:

Why are the Russians so good at it in men's? 

Because they have a school of sport and no folkstyle. Next question, babe.