Russian Transfers

[BAC]

Does the IOC (or UWW) set any sort of minimum standards to allow a competitor, especially one from a barred country to compete for another country?  Should they?

I know it's been discussed before, but the number of Russians in the Olympics was crazy.  Flo has a good breakdown here:  https://www.flowrestling.org/articles/12787978-2024-paris-olympics-mens-freestyle-wrestling-by-the-numbers.  It also caught the eye of the mainstream press in Paris, giving a bit of a black eye to wrestling:   https://sportstar.thehindu.com/olympics/paris-2024/news/paris-olympics-2024-russians-wrestling-medals-representing-other-countries-controvery-russia-ukraine-war-ioc-action/article68514966.ece.

And now, post-Olympics, the Russian parades are happening, as someone pointed out re Zhamalov:  https://www.instagram.com/reel/C-7t2zLs_t5/?igsh=YzJkY3ExZ3oyaXox.

Come on.  Zhamalov is Russian.  He wasn't born in Uzbekistan, he never had dual citizenship in Uzbekistan.  Rather, in the first half of 2024, after Russia was banned, Zhamalov was able to change citizenship to Uzbekistan a few months before the Olympics, but never moved there.  Zhamalov competes in the Olympics -- defeating 4 other Russian-born wrestlers in his first 4 matches (all competing for other countries) -- and wins.  He goes back to Russia and Russia throws a parade for him.

I don't mean this as sour grapes.  Rivera, after all, competed for PR and had a parade in NJ.  In general, I'm fine with athletes of dual citizenship parentage choosing who to represent, and there's nothing wrong with changing citizenship in general.  In fact, as a wrestling fan, I like seeing all the skilled Russians, as it ups the level of competition.

But I'm not a fan of the "hired gun" citizenship swap, where a country alters and dumbs down its citizenship criteria solely to bring in someone for their athletic prowess.  (I'm sure the citizens of Bahrain are still celebrating the win of their favorite son, Tazhudinov.)  To me, it undermines the country-vs-country ethos that undergirds the world/Olympic games. Now it's more like one big open tournament.  Almost half the 74kg wrestlers in the Olympics (freestyle) were Russian (including 4 of the top 6).

I'm also not a fan of athletes from barred countries who don't meet AIN criteria, circumventing it by taking faux citizenship elsewhere.  Not making any accusations, but Zhamalov could literally be a Russian soldier occupying Ukraine and blowing holes in their skulls, and a day later he can fly to Paris to compete since he has dual citizenship with Uzbekistan.

I read that UWW head Lalovic, embarrassed at the ease with which Russia invaded the Olympics via other countries, wants to set a cap on the number of transfers a given country can accept.  That's a start, but I'm thinking more along the lines of minimum standards of new citizens, e.g. you have to be a citizen for at least two years before you can compete for a new country.  And for athletes hailing from a IOC-barred country, maybe require relinquishment of citizenship from the prior country, instead of allowing dual citizenship.  That seems a fair substitute for having to pass the AIN clearance process.

Thoughts?

[Truzzcat]

1 hour ago, BAC said:

Does the IOC (or UWW) set any sort of minimum standards to allow a competitor, especially one from a barred country to compete for another country?  Should they?

I know it's been discussed before, but the number of Russians in the Olympics was crazy.  Flo has a good breakdown here:  https://www.flowrestling.org/articles/12787978-2024-paris-olympics-mens-freestyle-wrestling-by-the-numbers.  It also caught the eye of the mainstream press in Paris, giving a bit of a black eye to wrestling:   https://sportstar.thehindu.com/olympics/paris-2024/news/paris-olympics-2024-russians-wrestling-medals-representing-other-countries-controvery-russia-ukraine-war-ioc-action/article68514966.ece.

And now, post-Olympics, the Russian parades are happening, as someone pointed out re Zhamalov:  https://www.instagram.com/reel/C-7t2zLs_t5/?igsh=YzJkY3ExZ3oyaXox.

Come on.  Zhamalov is Russian.  He wasn't born in Uzbekistan, he never had dual citizenship in Uzbekistan.  Rather, in the first half of 2024, after Russia was banned, Zhamalov was able to change citizenship to Uzbekistan a few months before the Olympics, but never moved there.  Zhamalov competes in the Olympics -- defeating 4 other Russian-born wrestlers in his first 4 matches (all competing for other countries) -- and wins.  He goes back to Russia and Russia throws a parade for him.

I don't mean this as sour grapes.  Rivera, after all, competed for PR and had a parade in NJ.  In general, I'm fine with athletes of dual citizenship parentage choosing who to represent, and there's nothing wrong with changing citizenship in general.  In fact, as a wrestling fan, I like seeing all the skilled Russians, as it ups the level of competition.

But I'm not a fan of the "hired gun" citizenship swap, where a country alters and dumbs down its citizenship criteria solely to bring in someone for their athletic prowess.  (I'm sure the citizens of Bahrain are still celebrating the win of their favorite son, Tazhudinov.)  To me, it undermines the country-vs-country ethos that undergirds the world/Olympic games. Now it's more like one big open tournament.  Almost half the 74kg wrestlers in the Olympics (freestyle) were Russian (including 4 of the top 6).

I'm also not a fan of athletes from barred countries who don't meet AIN criteria, circumventing it by taking faux citizenship elsewhere.  Not making any accusations, but Zhamalov could literally be a Russian soldier occupying Ukraine and blowing holes in their skulls, and a day later he can fly to Paris to compete since he has dual citizenship with Uzbekistan.

I read that UWW head Lalovic, embarrassed at the ease with which Russia invaded the Olympics via other countries, wants to set a cap on the number of transfers a given country can accept.  That's a start, but I'm thinking more along the lines of minimum standards of new citizens, e.g. you have to be a citizen for at least two years before you can compete for a new country.  And for athletes hailing from a IOC-barred country, maybe require relinquishment of citizenship from the prior country, instead of allowing dual citizenship.  That seems a fair substitute for having to pass the AIN clearance process.

Thoughts?

I believe in soccer the requirement was residency for 2 years and then it was extended to 5 years. I don't think 5 years is needed at this point, but I would agree this is getting out of hand. at 74kg alone had Russia been permitted to compete you would have had Salkazonov,Kadi,Zhamolov,Rassadin,Valiev,Sidakov,Tsabolov There is a world where Russia occupies every spot on the podium. I understand the frustration that some of these guys probably have not being able to compete in the biggest tournaments but I think it should come at some sort of cost for them to do so rather than giving a 23 and me report.

[Caveira]

3 hours ago, Truzzcat said:

I believe in soccer the requirement was residency for 2 years and then it was extended to 5 years. I don't think 5 years is needed at this point, but I would agree this is getting out of hand. at 74kg alone had Russia been permitted to compete you would have had Salkazonov,Kadi,Zhamolov,Rassadin,Valiev,Sidakov,Tsabolov There is a world where Russia occupies every spot on the podium. I understand the frustration that some of these guys probably have not being able to compete in the biggest tournaments but I think it should come at some sort of cost for them to do so rather than giving a 23 and me report.

Meh.  Your crazy if you ask why is rby wrestling for Mexico though.  Can’t have things both ways.  

[alliseeisgold]

How can we do better to attract Russians to wrestle for USA ?

That's the question USA should be asking.

[D3 for LU]

D3

[CHROMEBIRD]

On 8/22/2024 at 10:02 AM, BAC said:

Does the IOC (or UWW) set any sort of minimum standards to allow a competitor, especially one from a barred country to compete for another country?  Should they?

I know it's been discussed before, but the number of Russians in the Olympics was crazy.  Flo has a good breakdown here:  https://www.flowrestling.org/articles/12787978-2024-paris-olympics-mens-freestyle-wrestling-by-the-numbers.  It also caught the eye of the mainstream press in Paris, giving a bit of a black eye to wrestling:   https://sportstar.thehindu.com/olympics/paris-2024/news/paris-olympics-2024-russians-wrestling-medals-representing-other-countries-controvery-russia-ukraine-war-ioc-action/article68514966.ece.

And now, post-Olympics, the Russian parades are happening, as someone pointed out re Zhamalov:  https://www.instagram.com/reel/C-7t2zLs_t5/?igsh=YzJkY3ExZ3oyaXox.

Come on.  Zhamalov is Russian.  He wasn't born in Uzbekistan, he never had dual citizenship in Uzbekistan.  Rather, in the first half of 2024, after Russia was banned, Zhamalov was able to change citizenship to Uzbekistan a few months before the Olympics, but never moved there.  Zhamalov competes in the Olympics -- defeating 4 other Russian-born wrestlers in his first 4 matches (all competing for other countries) -- and wins.  He goes back to Russia and Russia throws a parade for him.

I don't mean this as sour grapes.  Rivera, after all, competed for PR and had a parade in NJ.  In general, I'm fine with athletes of dual citizenship parentage choosing who to represent, and there's nothing wrong with changing citizenship in general.  In fact, as a wrestling fan, I like seeing all the skilled Russians, as it ups the level of competition.

But I'm not a fan of the "hired gun" citizenship swap, where a country alters and dumbs down its citizenship criteria solely to bring in someone for their athletic prowess.  (I'm sure the citizens of Bahrain are still celebrating the win of their favorite son, Tazhudinov.)  To me, it undermines the country-vs-country ethos that undergirds the world/Olympic games. Now it's more like one big open tournament.  Almost half the 74kg wrestlers in the Olympics (freestyle) were Russian (including 4 of the top 6).

I'm also not a fan of athletes from barred countries who don't meet AIN criteria, circumventing it by taking faux citizenship elsewhere.  Not making any accusations, but Zhamalov could literally be a Russian soldier occupying Ukraine and blowing holes in their skulls, and a day later he can fly to Paris to compete since he has dual citizenship with Uzbekistan.

I read that UWW head Lalovic, embarrassed at the ease with which Russia invaded the Olympics via other countries, wants to set a cap on the number of transfers a given country can accept.  That's a start, but I'm thinking more along the lines of minimum standards of new citizens, e.g. you have to be a citizen for at least two years before you can compete for a new country.  And for athletes hailing from a IOC-barred country, maybe require relinquishment of citizenship from the prior country, instead of allowing dual citizenship.  That seems a fair substitute for having to pass the AIN clearance process.

Thoughts?

Don't confuse citizenship with sports nationality. They're typically the same for most athletes, but are actually two different things.

IIRC the UWW wrote up rules specific to wrestlers from Russia/Belarus who wanted to compete under AIN or another country during the sanctions, but the general requirements for changing athletic nationalities is along the lines of:

• file with the UWW for a transfer only during the month of December
• minimum 3 year window during which you can't represent your former country at the Olympics, Worlds, Continentals, or UWW Ranking Series events 
• approval for your release from your former country's national federation
• approval for your transfer-in from your new country's national federation
• development compensation fee paid from your new country's national federation to your former country's national federation (if applicable)
• residency documentation (passport, work permit, etc.)
• transfers are permanent, only one change in athletic nationality allowed during a wrestler's career
• countries can accept no more than one transfer per year for each style & age level (e.g., MFS Seniors, U20 Greco)

The IOC also has a "sports refugee" program to give athletes under certain conditions to compete at the Olympics, but idk what the exact rules are.

[gimpeltf]

11 minutes ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

• file with the UWW for a transfer only during the month of December

The Immigration Portal?

[BAC]

1 hour ago, gimpeltf said:

The Immigration Portal?

Yes you haven't heard of it?  It's an international database portal maintained by the IOC.  You should see how the big-name countries go after the big names when their name drops on the portal; it's like one big international auction. But sometimes athletes who have already picked a new country have a "do not contact" label, so you know that some sultan somewhere already bought them off.

[D3 for LU]

14 hours ago, BAC said:

Yes you haven't heard of it?  It's an international database portal maintained by the IOC.  You should see how the big-name countries go after the big names when their name drops on the portal; it's like one big international auction. But sometimes athletes who have already picked a new country have a "do not contact" label, so you know that some sultan somewhere already bought them off.

... they're all dancing about it already.

(Happy, happy sultans.)

D3

[MPhillips]

18 hours ago, BAC said:

Yes you haven't heard of it? 

They have a person who calls himself, 'Gliding Mortar' who tracks it all and updates the list.