Olympics: men boxing cs women?

[uncle bernard]

1 minute ago, jross said:

Does she have XY chromosomes?  

You don't know if Khelif has XY chromosomes. We don't know if any of our wrestlers have XY or some variation.

Do you think all female sports should have mandatory genetic testing to make sure women - who have female bodies and reproductive organs - don't have an extra Y chromosome due to a chromosome disorder? 

And if so, what about women who don't have Y chromosomes but have high testosterone? That's supposedly the advantage. Why not test every woman's testosterone level?

 

[Bigbrog]

2 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

Yes, 100%. It came from the Russian head of IBA - who got stripped of their governance for extensive corruption - after....*checks notes*....she beat a Russian boxer at the world championships. The IBA has never produced those results.

@jross

So you admit you don't know if the person is in fact a genetic male??  Pretty strong stance for not knowing.

[jross]

Put the test results aside for a moment.

Should athletes with male characteristics (specifically XY chromosomes, high testosterone) and/or transgender athletes be allowed to compete in women’s sport?

[jross]

2 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

You don't know if Khelif has XY chromosomes. We don't know if any of our wrestlers have XY or some variation.

Do you think all female sports should have mandatory genetic testing to make sure women - who have female bodies and reproductive organs - don't have an extra Y chromosome due to a chromosome disorder? 

And if so, what about women who don't have Y chromosomes but have high testosterone? That's supposedly the advantage. Why not test every woman's testosterone level?

 

If you look like a man and punch like a man, then yes its fair to test you.

Sort of like guys that hit home runs get tested for performance enhancers.

[uncle bernard]

Just now, Bigbrog said:

So you admit you don't know if the person is in fact a genetic male??  Pretty strong stance for not knowing.

Likewise.

My stance is that we should separate the genders the way we have for the entire history of sports. If you were born a woman with female anatomy and lived your entire life as a woman, you are a woman.

[uncle bernard]

2 minutes ago, jross said:

Put the test results aside for a moment.

Should athletes with male characteristics (specifically XY chromosomes, high testosterone) and/or transgender athletes be allowed to compete in women’s sport?

Yes, if they were born women with female anatomy, they should compete in women's sports. The way we've always done it.

[uncle bernard]

2 minutes ago, jross said:

If you look like a man and punch like a man, then yes its fair to test you.

Sort of like guys that hit home runs get tested for performance enhancers.

That's not what I asked. The only way to know whether a woman fits your definition of a woman is to test them all for chromosomes and testosterone.

And who decides what the limit for testosterone is? What about women with XX who have high testosterone?

And what about men with extremely high, natural testosterone. Why would they still get to compete if it's an unfair physical advantage?

[uncle bernard]

 

 

[Bigbrog]

22 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

 

 

Umm...you seriously have no idea why this is a hot topic issue and why it was brought up??  There is an increase in biological men competing in women sports and that is plain wrong no matter how some of you like to spin it. 

[jross]

26 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

 

 

Yes I can see the logic with how the 9 losses discounts multiple competitors quitting the match and saying the XY boxer punches harder than they have ever faced (including men they spar with).  FFS.

[uncle bernard]

2 minutes ago, jross said:

Yes I can see the logic with how the 9 losses discounts multiple competitors quitting the match and saying the XY boxer punches harder than they have ever faced (including men they spar with).  FFS.

Can you cite your sources? 

[jross]

My daughter has beast strength in wrestling.  Her opponents have cursed their coaches.  "Why don't you go out and ***ducking** wrestler her."  She loses to weaker but better technical wrestlers.

The XY boxer has lost to a few boxers, each with superior technical skill.

[uncle bernard]

8 minutes ago, Bigbrog said:

Umm...you seriously have no idea why this is a hot topic issue and why it was brought up??  There is an increase in biological men competing in women sports and that is plain wrong no matter how some of you like to spin it. 

Sure, that would be reasonable. However, this competitor is a woman and has been her entire life.

[jross]

4 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

Can you cite your sources? 

The sources are the boxers!  I cited two already here.

 

Quote

'When I fought with her I felt very out of my depth,' she wrote on X. 'Her blows hurt me a lot, I don't think I had ever felt like that in my 13 years as a boxer, nor in my sparring with men. Thank God that day I got out of the ring safely, and it's good that they finally realized.' - Brianda Tamara

Quote

 

After quitting within a minute of the match start.

“I am heartbroken,” she told reporters afterward. “I went to the ring to honor my father. I was told a lot of times that I was a warrior but I preferred to stop for my health. I have never felt a punch like this.”

She added: “I got into the ring to fight. I didn’t give up. But one punch hurt too much and so I said, ‘Enough.’ I’m going out with my head held high.” - Angela Carini

 

Edited August 1 by jross

[uncle bernard]

Just now, jross said:

My daughter has beast strength in wrestling.  Her opponents have cursed their coaches.  "Why don't you go out and ***ducking** wrestler her."  She loses to weaker but better technical wrestlers.

The XY boxer has lost to a few boxers, each with superior technical skill.

Sounds like it's time to test her according to you.

[Bigbrog]

Just now, uncle bernard said:

Sure, that would be reasonable. However, this competitor is a woman and has been her entire life.

You were way more logical in the International threads discussing this very thing...wonder why??

[uncle bernard]

1 minute ago, Bigbrog said:

You were way more logical in the International threads discussing this very thing...wonder why??

What? I'm saying the exact same things here.

[jross]

Just now, uncle bernard said:

Sounds like it's time to test her according to you.

Would be fine.  She doesn't look like a man any more than Amit.  If personality is an indicator... tom boy... she very well could be XY.  She definitely does not look manish like the XY boxer in question.

[Bigbrog]

1 minute ago, uncle bernard said:

What? I'm saying the exact same things here.

If you say so...but what you post don't lie.  You take a very combative tone on this thread for some reason.  I tended to agree with several of your posts on the international forum. 

But then again, that is sort of the whole point of the off topic threads so understandable.  We are a bunch of misfits spewing crap here.

[uncle bernard]

1 minute ago, jross said:

Would be fine.  She doesn't look like a man any more than Amit.  If personality is an indicator... tom boy... she very well could be XY.  She definitely does not look manish like the XY boxer in question.

So, again, do you support setting an upper limit for testosterone in women's sports as well as mandatory chromosome testing? 

And not just women who look "manish." Every single woman must be confirmed as a woman. What the doctor ID'd you as when you were born is not good enough.

What do you say?

[Bigbrog]

Just now, uncle bernard said:

So, again, do you support setting an upper limit for testosterone in women's sports as well as mandatory chromosome testing? 

And not just women who look "manish." Every single woman must be confirmed as a woman. What the doctor ID'd you as when you were born is not good enough.

What do you say?

Don't you have to provide a birth certificate when you compete in the Olympics...or maybe register with the national team or something??   I seem to remember when I was little and would go to wrestling tournaments, you needed a USA wrestling card and had to produce a birth certificate to get one...or maybe it was for the bigger age group tournaments that I needed to do that...just remember needing to produce that for my age verification.

[uncle bernard]

2 minutes ago, Bigbrog said:

If you say so...but what you post don't lie.  You take a very combative tone on this thread for some reason.  I tended to agree with several of your posts on the international forum. 

But then again, that is sort of the whole point of the off topic threads so understandable.  We are a bunch of misfits spewing crap here.

My position on this is extremely straight forward.

If the doctor ID'd you as a woman at birth, you get to compete as a woman. That's how we've always done it.

It's possible I'm more combative here, but the original comments I responded to were were combative.

All this woman wants to do is compete. She's lived her whole life as a woman. It's illegal in her country to be anything other than a woman because that's what she was born as. And now there are thousands of furious people online directing abuse at her because of something she has no control over.

[uncle bernard]

1 minute ago, Bigbrog said:

Don't you have to provide a birth certificate when you compete in the Olympics...or maybe register with the national team or something??   I seem to remember when I was little and would go to wrestling tournaments, you needed a USA wrestling card and had to produce a birth certificate to get one...or maybe it was for the bigger age group tournaments that I needed to do that...just remember needing to produce that for my age verification.

Of course you do. And her birth certificate says female. That's the whole problem. You guys are making this a trans-athlete controversy and she's not trans.

My guy, she lives in Algeria. Transgenderism is illegal and she is recognized as a woman there.

[Bigbrog]

1 minute ago, uncle bernard said:

Of course you do. And her birth certificate says female. That's the whole problem. You guys are making this a trans-athlete controversy and she's not trans.

My guy, she lives in Algeria. Transgenderism is illegal and she is recognized as a woman there.

Well...if she is in fact a biological woman then I have no problem with them fighting.  I think the reason this is an issue to people is because of the whole trans thing...add on top of that the person was disqualified from the world championships for failed gender test which people don't what that exactly means...we know that part of it was elevated testosterone but what was the other test...so it isn't completely illogical that people would be concerned about this.

 

[uncle bernard]

Just now, Bigbrog said:

Well...if she is in fact a biological woman then I have no problem with them fighting.  I think the reason this is an issue to people is because of the whole trans thing...add on top of that the person was disqualified from the world championships for failed gender test which people don't what that exactly means...we know that part of it was elevated testosterone but what was the other test...so it isn't completely illogical that people would be concerned about this.

 

Yes, that is the core of the issue and what I've been trying to convey.

A ton of right wing propaganda accounts tweeted out this week that she was trans. People got super upset about it. But it's not actually true. She has always been a woman. She's just strong.