Iowa's women's team is absolutely loaded

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

And arguably the best wrestling team in Iowa City.  Will the women's team start to overshadow the men's team if the Lady Hawkeyes continue their streak of landing ALL the top recruits and winning all the NCAA titles?

[ionel]

I dont know about that but why the Hawkeye Screwjob on Mark Perry Jr? 

[WildTurk]

It's about time other D-1 schools step up and add women's wrestling.  There are some talented girls out there crushing it!

[TNwrestling]

FloWrestling reported that Kennedy Blades has signed with Iowa to compete for them next year. Just a few days after Macey Kiltey signed with Iowa as well. They also return a national champ around that weight next year too along with 3 other national champs

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

4 minutes ago, TNwrestling said:

FloWrestling reported that Kennedy Blades has signed with Iowa to compete for them next year. Just a few days after Macey Kiltey signed with Iowa as well. They also return a national champ around that weight next year too along with 3 other national champs

Yup, they are even more talent dense than the Penn State men's team.

[BAC]

Not an Iowa fan but give credit where it is due:  Iowa has really stepped up on women's wrestling.  There's a whole bunch of other D1 programs that should be out there doing what Iowa's doing but there isn't.  

Can anyone give me a good reason why the rest of the B1G isn't starting up women's teams? 

In 2022-23, there were 256,466 boys and 49,127 girls competing in high school wrestling.  I'm sure those women's numbers are much higher now, as it is by far the fastest growing sport (see https://apnews.com/article/wrestling-girls-high-school-c1e18531cf36831e158282ea08ca9775).  But assuming it's the same, that's about a 5:1 ratio.  There's 77 men's D1 programs... by that ratio, there's easily numbers to support 15+ D1 teams.  So why are all the women's opportunities buried in NAIA programs? 

This should be such a no-brainer.  Not only is there an enormous unmet need/demand, it also is extremely low-cost for D1 programs.  Wrestling is a low-expense sport as it is, but the wrestling infrastructure is already there!

It's also an easy way to goose your Title IX numbers.  For years, colleges had to avoid getting sued by doing ridiculous things like building a lake in a desert somewhere, in an effort to create a women's crew team for which there was no demonstrated interest (see https://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/28/opinion/wrestling-with-title-ix.html).  But now it's right there in front of their noses:  women who want to wrestle, and just need major colleges to step up.  Why are they being ushered off to Life U, McKendree, or Menlo?   

And getting a team out there early, as Iowa has wisely done, establishes you as a pre-eminent destination for the top women's wrestlers. It's definitely going to happen, it's just a matter of when -- and if a given D1 school is going to be a leader or on the outside looking in.

I'm picking on the B1G schools since they're the pre-eminent wrestling conference and Iowa has shown the other schools the way.  Time for them to get off their lazy rears and get in the game.

[flyingcement]

20 minutes ago, BAC said:

Not an Iowa fan but give credit where it is due:  Iowa has really stepped up on women's wrestling.  There's a whole bunch of other D1 programs that should be out there doing what Iowa's doing but there isn't.  

Can anyone give me a good reason why the rest of the B1G isn't starting up women's teams? 

In 2022-23, there were 256,466 boys and 49,127 girls competing in high school wrestling.  I'm sure those women's numbers are much higher now, as it is by far the fastest growing sport (see https://apnews.com/article/wrestling-girls-high-school-c1e18531cf36831e158282ea08ca9775).  But assuming it's the same, that's about a 5:1 ratio.  There's 77 men's D1 programs... by that ratio, there's easily numbers to support 15+ D1 teams.  So why are all the women's opportunities buried in NAIA programs? 

This should be such a no-brainer.  Not only is there an enormous unmet need/demand, it also is extremely low-cost for D1 programs.  Wrestling is a low-expense sport as it is, but the wrestling infrastructure is already there!

It's also an easy way to goose your Title IX numbers.  For years, colleges had to avoid getting sued by doing ridiculous things like building a lake in a desert somewhere, in an effort to create a women's crew team for which there was no demonstrated interest (see https://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/28/opinion/wrestling-with-title-ix.html).  But now it's right there in front of their noses:  women who want to wrestle, and just need major colleges to step up.  Why are they being ushered off to Life U, McKendree, or Menlo?   

And getting a team out there early, as Iowa has wisely done, establishes you as a pre-eminent destination for the top women's wrestlers. It's definitely going to happen, it's just a matter of when -- and if a given D1 school is going to be a leader or on the outside looking in.

I'm picking on the B1G schools since they're the pre-eminent wrestling conference and Iowa has shown the other schools the way.  Time for them to get off their lazy rears and get in the game.

In particular - where is Penn State, Ohio State, and Michigan in this regard?  I'd expect those schools to step up

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, flyingcement said:

In particular - where is Penn State, Ohio State, and Michigan in this regard?  I'd expect those schools to step up

There are a lot of Title IX issues.  Plus Iowa has already cornered the market.  No one else can compete with a roster loaded with 3 Olympians.

[BAC]

25 minutes ago, flyingcement said:

In particular - where is Penn State, Ohio State, and Michigan in this regard?  I'd expect those schools to step up

Agreed. I think PSU has a team in their Altoona campus (DIII) starting next year (too little, too late), while it's still club level at UM and tOSU.  Sad.

It's especially hard to justify Penn State's head being deep in the sand, not just because of the success of their men's team, but because women's wresting is thriving as much in PA as anywhere in the country, save CA.  In fact, per this breakdown of Fargo numbers, all the B1G states (with the ironic exception of Iowa) had strong women's wrestling performances:  https://www.themat.com/news/2024/july/21/pennsylvania-wins-overall-fargo2024-team-standings-with-california-and-illinois-in-the-top-three.

I'm sure money will get cited as a factor.  I'm guessing we'll also hear universities bellyache that sports growth needs to be put on pause now that they have to pay their athletes, per the NCAA deal with Power 5 conferences from a few months back.

Even so, with so many D1 programs backed by big donors, it's hard for me to believe that these schools couldn't send out an APB to their benefactors and tap into that largesse. Even if they aren't huge fans, a D1 women's program helps the men's program too, as they help build each others' fan (and revenue) bases, it's a recruiting boon (there's a TON of brother-sister wrestling combos these days), and there's no serious question that having a women's team is an added safeguard against the men's team being cut.

And on that note, I just don't see how this isn't a gift from the Title IX compliance gods. Not just in terms of proportionality, but in not having to manufacture nonexistent interest in women's college sports teams that have zero high school pedigree.  I'm looking at you, women's rowing. (High school participants:  2100.  D1 schools with women's rowing:  89.)  Heck, women's wrestling recently passed women's field hockey in high school participation, and 79 D1 schools field a field hockey team.

These universities need to decide if they're going to get on the train or get left behind.

[MPhillips]

32 minutes ago, flyingcement said:

where is Penn State, Ohio State, and Michigan in this regard?

Ohio had their first sanctioned Girls State Championship in 2023. A total of 257 high schools had entries in the OHSAA regional wrestling tournaments (not full teams mind you).  I haven't heard anything mentioned about women's wrestling coming to OSU. Perhaps Ryan isn't interested? Or he's not a fan? Maybe it's coming... We know they have the means.

Ohio colleges with women's wrestling

Baldwin Wallace University,
Hiram College,
John Carroll University,
Lourdes University,
Otterbein University,
Tiffin University,
University of Findlay,
University of Mount Union,

PA sanctioned girls wrestling last July and has 205 high schools competing.

PA colleges with women's wrestling

Alvernia University,
Cedar Crest College,
Commonwealth University - Bloomsburg,
Commonwealth University - Lock Haven,
Delaware Valley University,
East Stroudsburg University of Pennsylvania,
Gannon University,
Lackawanna College,

MI sanctioned girls wrestling in 2020 and had over 800 participants in 2023/2024 (didn't see a number of schools).

MI colleges with women's wrestling

Adrian College,
Albion College,
Alma College,
Davenport University,
Grand Valley State University,
Northern Michigan University,
Rochester University,
Siena Heights University.

Quick search. 

 

[flyingcement]

2 minutes ago, MPhillips said:

Ohio had their first sanctioned Girls State Championship in 2023. A total of 257 high schools had entries in the OHSAA regional wrestling tournaments (not full teams mind you).  I haven't heard anything mentioned about women's wrestling coming to OSU. Perhaps Ryan isn't interested? Or he's not a fan? Maybe it's coming... We know they have the means.

Ohio colleges with women's wrestling

Baldwin Wallace University,
Hiram College,
John Carroll University,
Lourdes University,
Otterbein University,
Tiffin University,
University of Findlay,
University of Mount Union,

PA sanctioned girls wrestling last July and has 205 high schools competing.

PA colleges with women's wrestling

Alvernia University,
Cedar Crest College,
Commonwealth University - Bloomsburg,
Commonwealth University - Lock Haven,
Delaware Valley University,
East Stroudsburg University of Pennsylvania,
Gannon University,
Lackawanna College,

MI sanctioned girls wrestling in 2020 and had over 800 participants in 2023/2024 (didn't see a number of schools).

MI colleges with women's wrestling

Adrian College,
Albion College,
Alma College,
Davenport University,
Grand Valley State University,
Northern Michigan University,
Rochester University,
Siena Heights University.

Quick search. 

 

my great grandmother played college basketball for east stroudsburg back when guards weren't allowed to cross half-court.  I guess they have a history of women's sports.

thanks for sharing this list thought which paints a different picture than I realized.  I still would like to see big programs adopt like Iowa has

Edited July 25 by flyingcement

[Idaho]

1 hour ago, BAC said:

Can anyone give me a good reason why the rest of the B1G isn't starting up women's teams? 

 

 

1 hour ago, flyingcement said:

In particular - where is Penn State, Ohio State, and Michigan in this regard?  I'd expect those schools to step up

Michigan and Ohio State have one more womens athletic program than mens...Penn State could actually add a women's team (they have one less) . Most of the Big 10 schools are even on sports teams or more womens.  

[flyingcement]

Just now, Idaho said:

 

Michigan and Ohio State have one more womens athletic program than mens...Penn State could actually add a women's team (they have one less) . Most of the Big 10 schools are even on sports teams or more womens.  

Even with both having football and wrestling?  I guess volleyball, field hockey, and something else I'm forgetting?

[MPhillips]

Men's sports	Women's sports
Baseball	Basketball
Basketball	Cross country
Cross country	Fencing
Fencing	Field hockey
Football	Golf
Golf	Gymnastics
Gymnastics	Ice hockey
Ice hockey	Lacrosse
Lacrosse	Rowing
Soccer	Soccer
Swimming and diving	Softball
Tennis	Swimming and diving
Track and field†	Synchronized swimming
Volleyball	Tennis
Wrestling	Track and field†
	Volleyball

 

Synchronized Swimming...

Edited July 25 by MPhillips

[BAC]

17 minutes ago, Idaho said:

 

Michigan and Ohio State have one more womens athletic program than mens...Penn State could actually add a women's team (they have one less) . Most of the Big 10 schools are even on sports teams or more womens.  

Just remember that Title IX compliance isn't measured by the number of teams, but by the total number of participants in athletics university-wide.  In theory, a school could have only one men's team -- say, a football team with 150 participants -- and 5 women's teams with 25 participants in each -- and still get sued for discrimination against women (150 total participants vs 125).

One defense against that (under Title IX's 3-prong regulatory standard) is to show that, despite the imbalance, they've fully accommodated female athletic interest.  That used to be pretty easy to do, since women are, on average, less interested in athletics than men, and once you have a critical mass of women's teams it becomes hard to show there's sufficient interest to create a new women's team in a new sport. 

I suspect if you look up the B1G schools' Title IX numbers, you'll find that most are out of compliance in proportionality terms (too many men), and are avoiding lawsuits by claiming they fully accommodated women's sports interests.  But that's going to be harder and harder for them to do as interest in women's wrestling continues to skyrocket. 

Edited July 25 by BAC

[BAC]

4 minutes ago, MPhillips said:

Synchronized Swimming...

*facepalm*

See, that's what I'm talking about.  All these fake sports that colleges have been forced to create out of nothing to avoid getting sued, but then a REAL sport with REAL interest comes along, and they do nothing.

[ionel]

8 minutes ago, MPhillips said:

Synchronized Swimming...

Wkn approves. 

[Idaho]

5 minutes ago, BAC said:

*facepalm*

See, that's what I'm talking about.  All these fake sports that colleges have been forced to create out of nothing to avoid getting sued, but then a REAL sport with REAL interest comes along, and they do nothing.

Exactly what I was going to post... Women's wrestling got popular too late is one way to look at it. 

[Idaho]

12 minutes ago, BAC said:

Just remember that Title IX compliance isn't by the number of teams, but by the total number of participants in athletics university-wide.  In theory, a school could have only one men's team -- say, a football team with 150 participants -- and 5 women's teams with 25 participants in each -- and still get sued for discrimination against women (150 total participants vs 125).

I suspect if you look up the B1G schools' Title IX numbers, you'll find that most are out of compliance in proportionality terms (too many men), and are avoiding lawsuits by claiming that, despite the imbalance, they've fully accommodated female athletic interest.  But that's going to be harder and harder for them to do as interest in women's wrestling continues to skyrocket. 

For participation requirements they only have to meet one criteria - which could be accommodating interests and abilities of the underrepresented sex - so they are not out of compliance or avoiding a lawsuit - they are meeting one of the criteria. In Ohio State's case, they are a 50% split in gender (1a). 

From the NCAA: 

An institution must meet all of the following requirements in order to be in compliance with Title IX: 

1. For participation requirements, institutions officials must meet one of the following three tests. An institution may:
   1. Provide participation opportunities for women and men that are substantially proportionate to their respective rates of enrollment of full-time undergraduate students;
   2. Demonstrate a history and continuing practice of program expansion for the underrepresented sex;
   3. Fully and effectively accommodate the interests and abilities of the underrepresented sex; and,
2. Female and male student-athletes must receive athletics scholarship dollars proportional to their participation; and,                          
3. Equal treatment of female and male student-athletes in the eleven provisions as mentioned above.

[ionel]

9 minutes ago, Idaho said:

For participation requirements they only have to meet one criteria - which could be accommodating interests and abilities of the underrepresented sex - so they are not out of compliance or avoiding a lawsuit - they are meeting one of the criteria. In Ohio State's case, they are a 50% split in gender (1a). 

From the NCAA: 

An institution must meet all of the following requirements in order to be in compliance with Title IX: 

1. For participation requirements, institutions officials must meet one of the following three tests. An institution may:
   1. Provide participation opportunities for women and men that are substantially proportionate to their respective rates of enrollment of full-time undergraduate students;
   2. Demonstrate a history and continuing practice of program expansion for the underrepresented sex;
   3. Fully and effectively accommodate the interests and abilities of the underrepresented sex; and,
2. Female and male student-athletes must receive athletics scholarship dollars proportional to their participation; and,                          
3. Equal treatment of female and male student-athletes in the eleven provisions as mentioned above.

So trans wrestling?

[BAC]

35 minutes ago, Idaho said:

For participation requirements they only have to meet one criteria - which could be accommodating interests and abilities of the underrepresented sex - so they are not out of compliance or avoiding a lawsuit - they are meeting one of the criteria. In Ohio State's case, they are a 50% split in gender (1a). 

From the NCAA: 

An institution must meet all of the following requirements in order to be in compliance with Title IX: 

1. For participation requirements, institutions officials must meet one of the following three tests. An institution may:
   1. Provide participation opportunities for women and men that are substantially proportionate to their respective rates of enrollment of full-time undergraduate students;
   2. Demonstrate a history and continuing practice of program expansion for the underrepresented sex;
   3. Fully and effectively accommodate the interests and abilities of the underrepresented sex; and,
2. Female and male student-athletes must receive athletics scholarship dollars proportional to their participation; and,                          
3. Equal treatment of female and male student-athletes in the eleven provisions as mentioned above.

Yes, letters (a)-(c) are the 3 alternative compliance prongs.  I agree with you that, as worded, they are on equal footing.  But I suspect that if you spoke with someone in the compliance branch of the Dept. of Education's Office of Civil Rights, they'd tell you that proportionality (1(a)) is the real goal, and you're just buying time if you're reliant on prong (b) or (c).  That's the consistent complaint of ADs over the years and that's been my experience having litigated in this area.  That's why I worded it as I did ("out of compliance in proportionality terms" and avoiding lawsuits via the interests/abilities prong).

If tOSU is now compliant with the proportionality prong (50-50, you say), that does pose an obstacle to adding a new women's team, since they're playing a zero sum game.  Probably the easiest fix is to ease the roster caps they no doubt have on some of the men's teams. 

But if they claim they lack the funds, I wouldn't shed many tears if they dumped one of those women's sports teams to make room for wrestling. I'm not usually a fan of cannibalizing, but let's face it, some of those teams exist solely for Title IX compliance purposes.  As of 2022-23, women's wrestling had twice more high school participants than did women's synchronized swimming, rowing, fencing, ice hockey and gymnastics, combined. (See https://www.nfhs.org/media/7212351/2022-23_participation_survey.pdf).  Some I'd genuinely hate to see go (e.g. gymnastics) but some of the others... come on. Club sports at best.

Maybe tOSU (and other B1G/Power 5 schools) should try actually servicing the needs and wants of their applicants and students, rather than just cynically creating fake scholarship opportunities for sports that barely exist at the high school level to stay out of court. 

Edited July 25 by BAC

[Idaho]

1 hour ago, BAC said:

Maybe tOSU (and other B1G/Power 5 schools) should try actually servicing the needs and wants of their applicants and students, rather than just cynically creating fake scholarship opportunities for sports that barely exist at the high school level to stay out of court. 

Yep...I agree...but I must confess that my daughter is an example and somewhat of a beneficiary of this.  Having played pretty high level volleyball, she got a little burned out and didn't want to play volleyball in college. The Lacrosse coach reached out and she got a scholarship having never played. So... on to Lacrosse season! 

[BAC]

11 minutes ago, Idaho said:

Yep...I agree...but I must confess that my daughter is an example and somewhat of a beneficiary of this.  Having played pretty high level volleyball, she got a little burned out and didn't want to play volleyball in college. The Lacrosse coach reached out and she got a scholarship having never played. So... on to Lacrosse season! 

Shoot, I thought you were going to say she got a synchronized swimming scholarship.    

Lax and Volleyball are legit.  Women's wrestling's participation numbers are way behind volleyball and only about half of lacrosse's.  Your kid must be a heck of an athlete to get a lax scholarship without having played before.

Edited July 25 by BAC

[ChickenWing]

Okla State has neither women's volleyball or women's wrestling but they have a women's equestrian team. To high school vb and wrestling coaches that's a real head scratcher.

 

[MadMardigain]

On 7/26/2024 at 11:49 AM, ChickenWing said:

Okla State has neither women's volleyball or women's wrestling but they have a women's equestrian team. To high school vb and wrestling coaches that's a real head scratcher.