jross Posted April 1 Share Posted April 1 On 3/29/2024 at 4:38 PM, jross said: While the New Testament still has its ethical criticisms, the world would be better if there were true followers of just the second of its two greatest commandments. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. Love your neighbor as yourself. In the New Testament, Christians are told to give what they decide in their hearts. The idea of giving 10% to the church comes from a different period in the Old Testament (Mosiac law), and some carry it forward in loose tradition. If the 10% comment went over your head, you might not understand what the bible teaches. I'm not blaming you because many self-proclaimed "Christians" behave in a way that turned me off of religion. The NT and OT contain some of the best life guidance of any book created. Don't get me wrong, there are also some terrible laws in the OT that are dated. It is easy to fall into the trap that the bible is a waste of time but as a non-Christian, I'm telling you, even the OT is filled with wisdom, insights, and truths. You may not believe in the NT miracles of Jesus... but to strive to be like him is a wonderful concept. The dog woke me up in the middle of the night, as usual, and my mind is spinning over work stuff. Can't sleep. So what do I do about nearly two decades? I open up and begin reading Proverbs from the Old Testament. It truly contains timeless wisdom, and certain insights hit me differently now than they did then. The concept of prudence, showing goodwill, showing kindness to those that annoy you... spot on. I see the comments about how you become the people you hang out with. How you should avoid negative people. How you should recognize and address injustice when you can. Those who give are given more in return. The value of diligence and personal responsibility. Later, I stumbled upon a secular message that I agreed with from an unlikely source. You don't have to be Christian to recognize its goodness so far as religions go. So much of what I value as good comes from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreePointTakedown Posted April 1 Share Posted April 1 1 hour ago, jross said: The dog woke me up in the middle of the night, as usual, and my mind is spinning over work stuff. Can't sleep. So what do I do about nearly two decades? I open up and begin reading Proverbs from the Old Testament. It truly contains timeless wisdom, and certain insights hit me differently now than they did then. The concept of prudence, showing goodwill, showing kindness to those that annoy you... spot on. I see the comments about how you become the people you hang out with. How you should avoid negative people. How you should recognize and address injustice when you can. Those who give are given more in return. The value of diligence and personal responsibility. Later, I stumbled upon a secular message that I agreed with from an unlikely source. You don't have to be Christian to recognize its goodness so far as religions go. So much of what I value as good comes from it. The thing by itself cannot take action of its own. So no religion is not malevolent. I would say the use of it is. Good, bad, or otherwise its wrong to threaten people with punishment for no other reason than they exist and thus deserve it. That's just one iteration of religion but other ones aren't any better. Saw an interesting video the other day. Person was talking about changing churches based on the morality they would rather have preached at them. If morality was actually a thing it should be universal and unchanging. But we change it all the time. So morality is relative to your situation and choice. Each person makes up their version of the religion to follow. For whatever reason they have, fear or convenience, it changes from person to person and church to church. Which means they can't all be right but can all be wrong. How do we tell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jross Posted April 1 Share Posted April 1 (edited) Religion is a framework that can be used in various ways. Not all religions are the same, and some are certainly better than others. Find me where the New Testament has its followers threaten punishment for existence. It could? I'm aware that the punishment for sin is separation (and worse) from God in the afterlife. I'm not aware of punishment during life. Its rather about forgiveness and love. ...now the Old Testament is different but does not apply People are even changing the bible to fit their needs! Wrong. Morals are straightforward and universal: Follow the Golden Rule and obey your community/government laws. Do this, and we would still have parades—but probably not nudists on bicycles. Edited April 1 by jross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreePointTakedown Posted April 1 Share Posted April 1 10 minutes ago, jross said: Religion is a framework that can be used in various ways. Not all religions are the same, and some are certainly better than others. Find me where the New Testament has its followers threaten punishment for existence. It could? I'm aware that the punishment for sin is separation (and worse) from God in the afterlife. I'm not aware of punishment during life. Its rather about forgiveness and love. ...now the Old Testament is different but does not apply People are even changing the bible to fit their needs! Wrong. Morals are straightforward and universal: Follow the Golden Rule and obey your community/government laws. Do this, and we would still have parades—but probably not nudists on bicycles. Sorry but again different passages in your response seem to reverse your position. Why not include the OT? Its part of the story, right? Treated as truth? And of course the bible is being changed. It has been changed. Its been translated, which would change, even slightly, the story. Also, there are denominations that agree or disagree with passages in the book and therefore formed their own tax shelter, I mean church. We do not follow great swaths of the 'teachings' of that book, thankfully. Slavery, for instance is condoned and encouraged but now is not. Again, thankfully. Stoning is no longer a punishment carried out for sinners or unruly children or blasphemers, etc. No original copies of the book or the writings that make up the book. So none of it can be trusted to be authentic. Anyone that claims to be all knowing and all powerful should've seen that coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jross Posted April 1 Share Posted April 1 1 hour ago, ThreePointTakedown said: Sorry but again different passages in your response seem to reverse your position. Why not include the OT? Its part of the story, right? Treated as truth? And of course the bible is being changed. It has been changed. Its been translated, which would change, even slightly, the story. Also, there are denominations that agree or disagree with passages in the book and therefore formed their own tax shelter, I mean church. We do not follow great swaths of the 'teachings' of that book, thankfully. Slavery, for instance is condoned and encouraged but now is not. Again, thankfully. Stoning is no longer a punishment carried out for sinners or unruly children or blasphemers, etc. No original copies of the book or the writings that make up the book. So none of it can be trusted to be authentic. Anyone that claims to be all knowing and all powerful should've seen that coming. Is the 'holy bible' a book, or a collection of books divided into two categories? What is the oldest version of any biblical book and what major discrepancies are found in print from that original compared to today? What is the difference between a Jew and Christian with respect to the Old and New testament? For the books applicable to Christians, where is it condoned to hold slaves and stone people? Bonus points if you can tie Islam to the Old Testament with respect to stoning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreePointTakedown Posted April 1 Share Posted April 1 Just now, jross said: Is the 'holy bible' a book, or a collection of books divided into two categories? What is the oldest version of any biblical book and what major discrepancies are found in print from that original compared to today? What is the difference between a Jew and Christian with respect to the Old and New testament? For the books applicable to Christians, where is it condoned to hold slaves and stone people? Bonus points if you can tie Islam to the Old Testament with respect to stoning. Collection vs book is a distinction without a difference. Its one religion(not just one, but each one makes the claim) that claims it, all of it, as fact. Trying to separate one portion from the rest is not illegal but does call into question the truthiness of the whole work. I don't read those languages. But it doesn't matter. The oldest, no matter how close to the actual events, cannot be considered 100% accurate because there is nothing to compare. Considering the stories weren't written down until decades after some of the events. Would, again, call into question the accuracy of the events at all. Difference. I don't think it matters. Accuracy or truth of either hasn't been established. Once there are examples to compare rather than just opinions of a thing to compare then we can have that conversation. Slavery: From what I understand, the whole book is for christians. But since you asked, Leviticus 25:44-46. Ephesians 6:5-8. Numbers 31. If part of the book is immoral, how does that effect the rest of the book? If you can just decide which passages to follow as true are you not making up your own religion? Don't need bonus points. Not about winning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jross Posted April 1 Share Posted April 1 (edited) 24 minutes ago, ThreePointTakedown said: Collection vs book is a distinction without a difference. Its one religion(not just one, but each one makes the claim) that claims it, all of it, as fact. Trying to separate one portion from the rest is not illegal but does call into question the truthiness of the whole work. I don't read those languages. But it doesn't matter. The oldest, no matter how close to the actual events, cannot be considered 100% accurate because there is nothing to compare. Considering the stories weren't written down until decades after some of the events. Would, again, call into question the accuracy of the events at all. Difference. I don't think it matters. Accuracy or truth of either hasn't been established. Once there are examples to compare rather than just opinions of a thing to compare then we can have that conversation. Slavery: From what I understand, the whole book is for christians. But since you asked, Leviticus 25:44-46. Ephesians 6:5-8. Numbers 31. If part of the book is immoral, how does that effect the rest of the book? If you can just decide which passages to follow as true are you not making up your own religion? Don't need bonus points. Not about winning. I am asking you to research because Christians are not Jewish. The Old Testament contains (Moses/Mosiac) laws for Jewish people. The New Testament acknowledges the Old Testament laws but teaches that through Jesus Christ, a new covenant has been established that supersedes. Besides the parts on the after life, the New Testament is about love and forgiveness. Jews do not follow the New Testament. Outside the 10 commandments, Christian's don't bother with laws from the Old Testament. The NT says the OT law is fullfilled! Christians really focus on two commandments (love god, love your neighbor). The NT says that governing authorities (ack!) are established by God and should be obeyed, as long as their commands do not contradict God's commands. You are correct that the NT mentions slaves. It says slaves should obey their masters with sincerity and wholeheartedness, just as masters should treat slaves fairly, knowing that they themselves have a master in heaven. You specifically would really like what the NT has to say about helping people and justice. You might not like what it has to say about diligence and personal accountability. You might also like the guidance in the Old Testament in the book of proverbs. We argue left and right over wisdom more than 2000 years old. Timeless. I do not want to serve a God that had the Old Testament laws. Jesus is great but its the same God and that gives me pause. The people who do not act as the NT commands gives me pause. Traveling to other countries, reading other religion books, and getting to know people from different culures has me wondering what religion I would be if born somewhere else. I also wonder if people in other cultures meet their religious God in their near death experiences. Big questions that I cannot get satisfactory answers too. None of this changes the facts I'm sharing that the NT is all about the golden rule. Its the damn people that give Christianity a bad name. I'd have an easier time believing if a Muslim NDE, Budha NDE, Hindu NDE, etc. all met Jesus when they saw the light and returned. Edited April 1 by jross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrestlingRasta Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 15 hours ago, jross said: and my mind is spinning over work stuff. Can't sleep. When that happens I pull up the video of the Wailers ‘catch a fire’ recording at BBC studios, particularly Concrete Jungle. Jah Bless. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockLobster Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 7 hours ago, jross said: I am asking you to research because Christians are not Jewish. The Old Testament contains (Moses/Mosiac) laws for Jewish people. The New Testament acknowledges the Old Testament laws but teaches that through Jesus Christ, a new covenant has been established that supersedes. Besides the parts on the after life, the New Testament is about love and forgiveness. Jews do not follow the New Testament. Outside the 10 commandments, Christian's don't bother with laws from the Old Testament. The NT says the OT law is fullfilled! Christians really focus on two commandments (love god, love your neighbor). The NT says that governing authorities (ack!) are established by God and should be obeyed, as long as their commands do not contradict God's commands. You are correct that the NT mentions slaves. It says slaves should obey their masters with sincerity and wholeheartedness, just as masters should treat slaves fairly, knowing that they themselves have a master in heaven. You specifically would really like what the NT has to say about helping people and justice. You might not like what it has to say about diligence and personal accountability. You might also like the guidance in the Old Testament in the book of proverbs. We argue left and right over wisdom more than 2000 years old. Timeless. I do not want to serve a God that had the Old Testament laws. Jesus is great but its the same God and that gives me pause. The people who do not act as the NT commands gives me pause. Traveling to other countries, reading other religion books, and getting to know people from different culures has me wondering what religion I would be if born somewhere else. I also wonder if people in other cultures meet their religious God in their near death experiences. Big questions that I cannot get satisfactory answers too. None of this changes the facts I'm sharing that the NT is all about the golden rule. Its the damn people that give Christianity a bad name. I'd have an easier time believing if a Muslim NDE, Budha NDE, Hindu NDE, etc. all met Jesus when they saw the light and returned. As much as I'd like to know, I'm not sure what we all need right now... but I am sure that crazy churchy folks like you are what we don't need. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyBT Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 22 hours ago, ThreePointTakedown said: The thing by itself cannot take action of its own. So no religion is not malevolent. I would say the use of it is. Good, bad, or otherwise its wrong to threaten people with punishment for no other reason than they exist and thus deserve it. That's just one iteration of religion but other ones aren't any better. Saw an interesting video the other day. Person was talking about changing churches based on the morality they would rather have preached at them. If morality was actually a thing it should be universal and unchanging. But we change it all the time. So morality is relative to your situation and choice. Each person makes up their version of the religion to follow. For whatever reason they have, fear or convenience, it changes from person to person and church to church. Which means they can't all be right but can all be wrong. How do we tell? It’s called faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyBT Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 7 hours ago, RockLobster said: As much as I'd like to know, I'm not sure what we all need right now... but I am sure that crazy churchy folks like you are what we don't need. Don’t need crazy wokesters either 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jross Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 (edited) 9 hours ago, RockLobster said: As much as I'd like to know, I'm not sure what we all need right now... but I am sure that crazy churchy folks like you are what we don't need. Even fools are thought wise if they keep silent, and discerning if they hold their tongues. If my content annoys you, there is an ignore feature. If the topic annoys you, there is an ignore for it also. If you want to silence or change my mind, logic and data are your tools. I do not attend church, I do not pray, and I am not religious. Edited April 2 by jross 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jross Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 TPTD's criticism indicates little knowledge of how much his social justice advocacy resonates with Christian theology. It is foolish to dismiss everything, even the good, because of one(few) thing(s) they don't agree with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreePointTakedown Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 18 hours ago, jross said: I am asking you to research because Christians are not Jewish. The Old Testament contains (Moses/Mosiac) laws for Jewish people. The New Testament acknowledges the Old Testament laws but teaches that through Jesus Christ, a new covenant has been established that supersedes. Besides the parts on the after life, the New Testament is about love and forgiveness. Jews do not follow the New Testament. Outside the 10 commandments, Christian's don't bother with laws from the Old Testament. The NT says the OT law is fullfilled! Christians really focus on two commandments (love god, love your neighbor). The NT says that governing authorities (ack!) are established by God and should be obeyed, as long as their commands do not contradict God's commands. You are correct that the NT mentions slaves. It says slaves should obey their masters with sincerity and wholeheartedness, just as masters should treat slaves fairly, knowing that they themselves have a master in heaven. You specifically would really like what the NT has to say about helping people and justice. You might not like what it has to say about diligence and personal accountability. You might also like the guidance in the Old Testament in the book of proverbs. We argue left and right over wisdom more than 2000 years old. Timeless. I do not want to serve a God that had the Old Testament laws. Jesus is great but its the same God and that gives me pause. The people who do not act as the NT commands gives me pause. Traveling to other countries, reading other religion books, and getting to know people from different culures has me wondering what religion I would be if born somewhere else. I also wonder if people in other cultures meet their religious God in their near death experiences. Big questions that I cannot get satisfactory answers too. None of this changes the facts I'm sharing that the NT is all about the golden rule. Its the damn people that give Christianity a bad name. I'd have an easier time believing if a Muslim NDE, Budha NDE, Hindu NDE, etc. all met Jesus when they saw the light and returned. I can appreciate that this is your opinion of how different people interpret and follow a work of literature. Please, stop saying that all these people do these things because it is something you feel to be true. They don't. Not all followers of a religion do x, y, or z or said religion. They still consider themselves as followers of religion. What you are doing is a 'no-true-Scotsman'. Trying to put a label on things that probably don't fit under that label. Why do you think you do that? Hint: its not because its true, because it isn't. Two commandments: The hell they do! The hate and vitriol on this site and many others would paint a much different picture. Little to no sympathy or empathy for our neighbors. Then the question is, who are our neighbors? To which I go back to the line from a previous thread. 'Its whatever I feel is right at the time!' So its arbitrary. Thus not universal. Established by blob: what does that even mean? That more people voted against 45 twice but we shouldn't follow them one of the times because laws of man supersede any others? That doesn't seem to make sense. Would love for you to square that circle. I have never argued against personal accountability. Just that I feel your emphasis on self reliance is a mask that you put up to avoid helping those that you feel are unworthy. Again for your own reasons and not of a higher power. Just that you don't want people to see your bias and call you out on it so you cloak it in 'personal accountability'. NDE would be better metrics under those circumstances. But how could you confirm anything 'seen' by a person whose brain is likely deprived of oxygen for a period of time. The beauty of a 'personal deity' is that it cannot be proven wrong. And that will continue to be the basis of the exploitation of religion until enough people become educated enough to figure it out. Which makes me wonder why the religious right is hell bent on tearing down public education in this country. Could it be that the one thing religion fears is a population with the guts and gumption to question the 'teachings' of the all time hide and seek champion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreePointTakedown Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 3 hours ago, JimmyBT said: It’s called faith. Yes. You were convinced of it as a child by people you trusted to lead you. Like Santa. But rather than casting that belief aside when kids around you started coming to their senses. You probably kept going to church or wherever and having the belief/faith reinforced. Also that your parents could not possibly be wrong about THIS because they are so smart and in charge and if you disagree with them there could be some bad ramifications. As kids we all picked up on the things we just shouldn't ask about. Getting spanked will do that. Now the sunken cost has kicked in and to question it now would mean unwinding a whole lot of stuff that you would rather not. Calling into question loved ones and the trauma that might bring up. So instead you decide to fight against it despite an itch in your mind that you probably don't have a leg to stand on. BTW, faith is what you say when you don't have a good reason or you'd just say the reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreePointTakedown Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 1 hour ago, jross said: TPTD's criticism indicates little knowledge of how much his social justice advocacy resonates with Christian theology. It is foolish to dismiss everything, even the good, because of one(few) thing(s) they don't agree with. Tell me one good thing that book advocates for that couldn't be found in another book? Also, would that book also have the bits about slavery and stoning and rape and incest and genocide? If I had to guess, no. If we can find the same message in any other book of fiction. Why not read that one so as to not have to deal with the other, incredibly immoral parts? Because to continually advocate for the reliance of the book or its message you are tacitly agreeing with the other parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrestlingRasta Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 11 minutes ago, ThreePointTakedown said: Yes. You were convinced of it as a child by people you trusted to lead you. Like Santa. But rather than casting that belief aside when kids around you started coming to their senses. You probably kept going to church or wherever and having the belief/faith reinforced. Also that your parents could not possibly be wrong about THIS because they are so smart and in charge and if you disagree with them there could be some bad ramifications. As kids we all picked up on the things we just shouldn't ask about. Getting spanked will do that. Now the sunken cost has kicked in and to question it now would mean unwinding a whole lot of stuff that you would rather not. Calling into question loved ones and the trauma that might bring up. So instead you decide to fight against it despite an itch in your mind that you probably don't have a leg to stand on. BTW, faith is what you say when you don't have a good reason or you'd just say the reason. ...or....when you know you don't know all the details but have a strong belief there's something bigger than me. Why is it people who talk the most about being open to other's ideas and ways, are usually among the first to shut any idea out that they don't understand? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jross Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 17 minutes ago, ThreePointTakedown said: I can appreciate that this is your opinion of how different people interpret and follow a work of literature. Please, stop saying that all these people do these things because it is something you feel to be true. They don't. Not all followers of a religion do x, y, or z or said religion. They still consider themselves as followers of religion. What you are doing is a 'no-true-Scotsman'. Trying to put a label on things that probably don't fit under that label. Why do you think you do that? Hint: its not because its true, because it isn't. You are correct. What I said is not 100% across all the followers but it is almost there. Can you use the bible and your knowledge of its followers to inform me. I am open and like to learn. I am speaking from experience, exploration, and research. What are you speaking from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jross Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 (edited) 1 hour ago, ThreePointTakedown said: Two commandments: The hell they do! The hate and vitriol on this site and many others would paint a much different picture. Little to no sympathy or empathy for our neighbors. Then the question is, who are our neighbors? To which I go back to the line from a previous thread. 'Its whatever I feel is right at the time!' So its arbitrary. Thus not universal. I'm not aware of the religious affiliations of forum members... but I do perceive hostility when the 'bigot' label is thrown around. Christians are people just like you and me concerning the errors they make... You are misinformed to pin their behaviors on Christian doctine. My personal understanding of neighborliness extends beyond geographical boundaries. The definition implied in the bible is not narrow either. My precendence is self, family, friends, neighbors in close proximity, and then neighbors further out. A local kid in need of school lunch is more important to me than a school lunch for a kid in Mexico. Sure some outcomes are beyond control. While empathy is valuable, personal accountability is worth more. The USA isn't taking care of itself and has no plan to... thus the help outside of it is a problem. Edited April 2 by jross two keys on this keyboard do not work :) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jross Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 1 hour ago, ThreePointTakedown said: 1 hour ago, ThreePointTakedown said: Established by blob: what does that even mean? That more people voted against 45 twice but we shouldn't follow them one of the times because laws of man supersede any others? That doesn't seem to make sense. Would love for you to square that circle. The bible says that Christians should obey man's law unless it conflicts with biblical (God's word) law. Christians should pay the government its taxes for example. Said differently, Christians should obey God rather than human beings. During the civil rights movement, Christians peacefully protested segregation laws and discrimination, inspired by God... even though the actions were in conflict with the governement. My criticism there is that the bible states there is divine origin of governmental authority and calls for submission to it. It is hard to fathom that Biden and Trump have divine origin of authority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jross Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 1 hour ago, ThreePointTakedown said: I have never argued against personal accountability. Just that I feel your emphasis on self reliance is a mask that you put up to avoid helping those that you feel are unworthy. Again for your own reasons and not of a higher power. Just that you don't want people to see your bias and call you out on it so you cloak it in 'personal accountability'. True but you say little in support of it. Rather you transition to what about some victim situation rather than plus 1 it or make it about both accountability AND social concern. You do not know my intentions and you have not asked for them. You have no idea what I do for others and you have not asked. You have criticized me for what you think I believe and what you think I don't perform without asking or knowing anything. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jross Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 1 hour ago, ThreePointTakedown said: bent on tearing down public education in this country Because it does not teach what they believe needs taught. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreePointTakedown Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 2 hours ago, WrestlingRasta said: ...or....when you know you don't know all the details but have a strong belief there's something bigger than me. Why is it people who talk the most about being open to other's ideas and ways, are usually among the first to shut any idea out that they don't understand? Being unconvinced is not being closed to the possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreePointTakedown Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 2 hours ago, jross said: You are correct. What I said is not 100% across all the followers but it is almost there. Can you use the bible and your knowledge of its followers to inform me. I am open and like to learn. I am speaking from experience, exploration, and research. What are you speaking from? Samesies! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreePointTakedown Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 1 hour ago, jross said: I'm not aware of the religious affiliations of forum members... but I do perceive hostility when the 'bigot' label is thrown around. Christians are people just like you and me concerning the errors they make... You are misinformed to pin their behaviors on Christian doctine. My personal understanding of neighborliness extends beyond geographical boundaries. The definition implied in the bible is not narrow either. My precendence is self, family, friends, neighbors in close proximity, and then neighbors further out. A local kid in need of school lunch is more important to me than a school lunch for a kid in Mexico. Sure some outcomes are beyond control. While empathy is valuable, personal accountability is worth more. The USA isn't taking care of itself and has no plan to... thus the help outside of it is a problem. Always comes back to accountability. You'll keep beating that horse till it bucks, won't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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