Book Bans

[jross]

3 minutes ago, Ban Basketball said:

No, parents get no say in curriculums or content

WHAT!  

[Ban Basketball]

Just now, jross said:

WHAT!  

They don't.  Care to tell me which school district allows those with no training in eggakashun to write and determine curriculums,  other than nowhere?

[ThreePointTakedown]

2 hours ago, jross said:

Simple.  Protecting children from potentially harmful content is a self-evident choice that prioritizes their well-being over unfettered access to sensitive material within an educational setting.

I disagree with parents' beliefs that access to Huck Finn's N words will transform my white kids into rabid racists.  These parents believe hearing the N-word read aloud, personally reading in silence, and classmates reading it could traumatize their black kids.  Removing Huck Finn from the school library does zero harm to my kids.  Keeping the book accessible has a non-zero risk.  

A graphic novel, "Flamer" is available in K-6 school libraries.  One page has multiple images with boys' pants down around their ankles and says, "We're each busting a load into this bottle.  If you don't cum, you have to DRINK IT!  Hahahaha!"  There is zero risk for harm by banning the book in the K-6 library.  There is a nonzero risk a young child is exposed at the wrong time in their life, and the parent may not even be aware they need to discuss it.

"Protecting children from potentially harmful content is a self-evident choice" 

'Self-evident' or 'common sense' things are never those. You want to because you want to. If you can back up your opinions you would, because you can't or won't you just say 'self-evident' as a way to shut down a conversation. THAT we're having this conversation proves you wrong. 

Flamer - on the Author's website, it says the book is for ages 14+, so I think you're either the misinformed or purposefully misleading. 

All books contain a non-zero risk to dissuading kids against their parents' beliefs. That isn't always a bad thing.  

[ThreePointTakedown]

2 hours ago, jross said:

All of them depending on what they say, how they say it, and how they answer questions.  

Have you never gotten a second and third opinion from doctors, dentists, mechanics, carpenters, painters, lawyers, and so on?

This is not that. 

What you're talking about is finding a plumber to diagnose your pipes with the issue you feel is wrong. If they disagree, you find another that will. There is no expertise in finding someone that agrees with you. If the majority of the people that study this issue agree, you need to make a pretty compelling case why we should listen to the minority. Since 'I just wanna' is not a good enough reason, as stated in my last post, you'll need to find something that makes your case in a 'non-self evident' way. 

[Ban Basketball]

This "debate" is over big gubment canceling of culture,  friends.  Did you ever dream that would happen in a land that allows for speech?

Here's a simple fix to those scared of words: exercise your school choice rights and if you're SSI fearful of what kids learn,  take them out of that school and either home school them ( there will be dinner well rounded folks,  eh friends) or send them to a private  school,  which we'll also likely have content that will scare you. 

Only solution for cancel culturists is home school.  Perfectly shielded yut!

[ThreePointTakedown]

2 hours ago, jross said:

Video evidence like this tells me I need to visit my kid's classroom, meet the teachers, attend parent conferences even though my kids have good grades, and stay away from California.
 

I don't understand, what was this teacher doing? Were they actively advocating for a position? Urging to take part in protests? What is wrong with that? I'd love to see how you hand wave this away. PROJECT VERITAS?! Shot and edited! Right there, the credibility of the video is suspect. PV is a joke. Blatantly dishonest! "I've had students show up at protests, community events, food distribution. All sorts of things." says the teacher. You'll have to paint the rest of the picture for me because this looks like a whole lot of satanic-panic-type stuff. Exactly what I said, get you wound up over nothing, feed you doctored tapes and point you in the direction of a thing. Hook line and sinker.  

[Ban Basketball]

Genuine question,  as it never happened to either of my sons' twelve years of public eggakashun.

Did any of you have such content that is talked about within this brilliant "discussion" presented to your kids? I'll then proceed from there.

[Ban Basketball]

1 minute ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

I don't understand, what was this teacher doing? Were they actively advocating for a position? Urging to take part in protests? What is wrong with that? I'd love to see how you hand wave this away. PROJECT VERITAS?! Shot and edited! Right there, the credibility of the video is suspect. PV is a joke. Blatantly dishonest! "I've had students show up at protests, community events, food distribution. All sorts of things." says the teacher. You'll have to paint the rest of the picture for me because this looks like a whole lot of satanic-panic-type stuff. Exactly what I said, get you wound up over nothing, feed you doctored tapes and point you in the direction of a thing. Hook line and sinker.  

What you said.  Who could imagine being anti-fascist, eh? Isn't everyone?

[Ban Basketball]

I ask it several times throughout a semester: if you're opposed to groups who oppose fascism and authoritarianism,  are you then Profa? You'd have to be. 

[jross]

1 hour ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

"Protecting children from potentially harmful content is a self-evident choice" 

'Self-evident' or 'common sense' things are never those. You want to because you want to. If you can back up your opinions you would, because you can't or won't you just say 'self-evident' as a way to shut down a conversation. THAT we're having this conversation proves you wrong. 

Flamer - on the Author's website, it says the book is for ages 14+, so I think you're either the misinformed or purposefully misleading. 

All books contain a non-zero risk to dissuading kids against their parents' beliefs. That isn't always a bad thing.  

Say more about your reasoning beyond an empty "No."  Help me understand where protecting children would not be a self-evident choice.  I can't think of any without going into dark cultural practices like child marriage, child labor, etc.  I do not understand why I'd need to explain the morality of the golden rule to you, and how that applies to the opinion shared, for which protecting children is self-evident.  Or maybe you think that children can handle any content without risk so long as there is a difficult conversation about it?  

Sources aplenty: Even in California, parents are upset that Flamer is in K-6 library. (link)  

Your last sentence is vapor.  It is not 'all' and only a tiny percent of book material is triggering parents to consider its content appropriateness in school.

[ThreePointTakedown]

On 10/12/2023 at 11:33 AM, jross said:

Agreed.  I'd have loved to homeschool my kids through middle school.  It was not in the cards.

I've largely delayed involving my children with organized religion and held off on religious discussions until they can think critically.  Our home dialogue includes questions like

• How many religions exist in the world?
• What are the fundamental principles of the popular religions?
• What parts of those popular religions do you find morally problematic?
• How does one's surroundings and cultural background influence their choice of religion?
• What are the pros and cons of Pascal's Wager?
• What will require you to place faith despite concrete evidence?
• Who are the best people you've encountered, and what faith do they follow?
• Is belief in god required to be a good person?

My 14-year-old daughter recently started attending a bible study at her Nana's house.  I am feeding my daughter questions like  "If you were born in Iraq, what would your religion most likely be?  Would you be destined for hell if by chance you were born to a Muslim family in Iraq?  If you were born and raised by a Muslim family in Iraq, would you believe that Nana (Protestant Christian) is destined for hell?"

This type of discussion is my parental responsibility...

Bringing up hell at all is poisoning the well just a bit. 

[jross]

1 hour ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

This is not that. 

What you're talking about is finding a plumber to diagnose your pipes with the issue you feel is wrong. If they disagree, you find another that will. There is no expertise in finding someone that agrees with you. If the majority of the people that study this issue agree, you need to make a pretty compelling case why we should listen to the minority. Since 'I just wanna' is not a good enough reason, as stated in my last post, you'll need to find something that makes your case in a 'non-self evident' way. 

Would you be able to restate this in different words?  I am having trouble following your meaning.

I do a good job of weeding out the 'expert' from the 'apprentice.'  And depending on the cost, I will consider multiple experts to decide.

• My new dentist recommended that I replace all my silver fillings.  Why?  Because they were old.  I went to another dentist who could tell me which ones needed replacing due to failure and could explain why they failed. 
• My wife visited a mechanic this month to have him inspect why her SUV is still bouncy after replacing shocks.  I needed a fault diagnosis to get a refund on parts.  The mechanic's diagnosis of the cause was that the front shocks (coil over) did not look like the rear shocks.   When I brought the old shock out for comparison, he could not explain why the new shock did not work, just stated that it must be faulty.  
• After returning from India with a parasite, the first doctor could not tell me what was wrong, wished me luck, and said I should get back with him after figuring it out.  I went to two other doctors and finally found an Indian doctor who immediately diagnosed me with confidence.
• When contracts told me that my company needed to pay a large amount of money to a vendor, for a contract I inherited, something didn't seem logically right, I read the contract language myself - worked through ambiguous language, and saved the company money. 

As an engineer, I have to explain the reasoning behind my design to my critical peers, answer questions, show sources, and convey confidence because design acceptance impacts my team.  So when an 'expert' cannot confidently express themselves and provide informed answers, I second guess them.  

Remember, more doctors smoke camels than any other cigarette!

Edited October 13, 2023 by jross

[Ban Basketball]

Anyone have any of these experiences with your kids in their schools?

I'd really like to know. 

[ThreePointTakedown]

29 minutes ago, jross said:

Say more about your reasoning beyond an empty "No."  Help me understand where protecting children would not be a self-evident choice.  I can't think of any without going into dark cultural practices like child marriage, child labor, etc.  I do not understand why I'd need to explain the morality of the golden rule to you, and how that applies to the opinion shared, for which protecting children is self-evident.  Or maybe you think that children can handle any content without risk so long as there is a difficult conversation about it?  

Sources aplenty: Even in California, parents are upset that Flamer is in K-6 library. (link)  

Your last sentence is vapor.  It is not 'all' and only a tiny percent of book material is triggering parents to consider its content appropriateness in school.

Seems like your way of deflecting away from the the fact that you have not articulated a reason other than 'self-evident'. Again, if you don't have a reason, you can just say it. You'll look like a fool but that's your choice, too. I was not a good parent by self evident means. I process things much differently than a small child and needed to understand the difference. 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/self-evident

Is a conversation ender when you don't want to or can't explain your reasoning. Either way, its on you and shouldn't be foisted on anyone else until you can demonstrate why. 

I agree with parents in Cali. Well done. 

I don't think you understood what the last sentence is meant to convey. If my parents believed that the bears were spelled Berenstain and I found a book that spelled it a different way. They would either have to come to terms with the fact they were wrong, there are other ways to spelling things, or that I shouldn't be allowed to read things that disagree with their ideology. See, there is a perfectly innocuous subject that is >0% chance of  conflicting with parents' beliefs. Are all adults this wacky with their ideas, probably not. But there is still a chance. Any book that proports to take place on a round Earth. Right there, that could cause some friction. Seems like you're pushing back on that just to push. Have at it. But it was to articulate that even small differences can be blown up if someone decides that is the hill they want to die on. Some of those hills are pretty dumb. 

[jross]

16 minutes ago, Ban Basketball said:

Anyone have any of these experiences with your kids in their schools?

I'd really like to know. 

“There is a good place to stick my balls” was in the learning material at my kid’s school last year.

[jross]

11 minutes ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

I don't think you understood what the last sentence is meant to convey. If my parents believed that the bears were spelled Berenstain and I found a book that spelled it a different way. 

How many parents are complaining about the spelling of that book?

[Plasmodium]

5 minutes ago, jross said:

“There is a good place to stick my balls” was in the learning material at my kid’s school last year.

This is HS?

[Ban Basketball]

6 minutes ago, jross said:

“There is a good place to stick my balls” was in the learning material at my kid’s school last year.

You found that depiction of sexual harassment objectionable!? Depending on the kid's age,  me's calls that derned good teaching.  It uses a horrific example to illustrate. 

[jross]

22 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

This is HS?

Middle school.  No parental transparency.  Parent drama on Facebook.

Edited October 13, 2023 by jross

[Ban Basketball]

30 minutes ago, jross said:

Middle school.  No parental transparency.  Parent drama on Facebook.

That'd still be good teaching to me,  but,  yes,  perhaps that sentence could have been removed.  The rest is great. 

[jross]

1 hour ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

I agree with parents in Cali. Well done. 

What exactly did you agree with and why?  

[Bigbrog]

jross...keep up the good fight against these idiots

[Ban Basketball]

16 hours ago, Bigbrog said:

jross...keep up the good fight against these idiots

Translation:  I like cancel culture!

Gotta love them freedom loving 30 percenters,  eh, friends?

You,  at least,  gave me a quote that I'll go to my grave teaching:  "there are no book bans. "

Edited October 14, 2023 by Ban Basketball

[Bigbrog]

6 hours ago, Ban Basketball said:

Translation:  I like cancel culture!

Gotta love them freedom loving 30 percenters,  eh, friends?

You,  at least,  gave me a quote that I'll go to my grave teaching:  "there are no book bans. "

Dude...get help...seriously

[Ban Basketball]

48 minutes ago, Bigbrog said:

Dude...get help...seriously

I've BEEN getting it! Incidentally,  I'm meeting with my banjo teacher tomorrow for the hep I need!

Thanks for looking out for me.