Why do we care about the team Championship?

[PortaJohn]

Never been to a BBQ among friends who are golf fanatics that cared about the Ryder Cup.  Not once have any of my wrestling buddies been devastated by the results of the Wrestling World Cup.  Does tennis have a team category?

 I get it.  Universities are involved so we need to crown a team but at the end of the day it's an individual sport.  I know we cant but I'd rather a format where we  removed this false idea that a team is actually competing 

[headshuck]

Have you ever been to a high school dual between rivals? An NCAA border brawl between rivals? Watched a national Duals final that came down to Mocco vs Konrad with Konrad getting the pin for the title?

[Matthew Burns]

It's pretty much all we have to grouse about for the dead months.

 

I understand Dan Gable took "a big bag of NIL money" from PSU to be the janitor.

[PortaJohn]

3 minutes ago, headshuck said:

Have you ever been to a high school dual between rivals? An NCAA border brawl between rivals? Watched a national Duals final that came down to Mocco vs Konrad with Konrad getting the pin for the title?

Yes. From Pennsylvania.  Have been to and been involved in these types of duals.  But wrestling is still not a team sport. And in these rivalry duals people show up for specific matches moreso than final team score 

[flyingcement]

I don't care that much about it, but it makes for an interesting subtext when the individual story gets dry.

"well sure, this match here may be lopsided, but it makes a huge difference for the team score if wrestler X can avoid a pin"

[BlacknGold]

It's all about team championships. 

[SocraTease]

Interesting question and issue.   

Baseball, football, soccer, basketball, hockey, lacrosse, volleyball, etc. are clearly team sports in the sense that:

(a) the players interact (e.g., pass the ball or puck around) on the field, court, or ice during a game with each other (members of their own team) and

(b) a score is kept such that there is only a winning or losing team (and not winning and losing individuals).

Wrestling (like tennis, gymnastics, boxing, swimming, and golf, for example) seems first of all to be an individual sport in a primary sense (with individuals competing directly against other  individuals), and then perhaps a team sport in a secondary sense.   

In this secondary sense:

(a) the participants on the team (if there is one) often train together, travel together, and support one another in significant ways and

(b) a team score (winner and loser) is often kept in addition to the individual scores (with winner and losers in matches, bouts, etc.)

There also appears to be a third category of a few sports, however, that possess both individual and team dimensions in an important way—a kind of hybrid realm.  Here, I'm thinking of track and field, cross country, rowing, and cycling.  Often, but not always, the individual works with members of their team in a symbiotic way, both to benefit their individual performance and the team performance (e.g., relay races in track, drafting off of team members in distance races and cycling, setting the pace, etc.).  But these sports can also easily become individual events where a team is unnecessary or non-existent.   Distance runners and cyclists might train with one another but compete on their own.

Given that wrestling is a high school and college sport in the US, it is inevitable that it is going to retain team dimensions and partisanship associated with the matches or tournaments. 

But at the freestyle level, it seems to become much more individualistic, even if some events (the Olympics, World Championships, and World Cup) have team aspects.

Hmm ...  Are horse races individual events with the jockey winning or losing or are they team events (wherein the horse is also an athlete teamed up closely with the jockey)?

[PortaJohn]

8 hours ago, SocraTease said:

Hmm ...  Are horse races individual events with the jockey winning or losing or are they team events (wherein the horse is also an athlete teamed up closely with the jockey)?

In horse racing they announce the horses name when they declare the winner.  Ponder that

[Eagle26]

Never been to a BBQ among friends who are golf fanatics that cared about the Ryder Cup.  Not once have any of my wrestling buddies been devastated by the results of the Wrestling World Cup.  Does tennis have a team category?
 I get it.  Universities are involved so we need to crown a team but at the end of the day it's an individual sport.  I know we cant but I'd rather a format where we  removed this false idea that a team is actually competing 

Maybe we could have an individual tournament that crowns the best individuals and a team tournament that crowns the best team???Crazy concept, I know…

[Ragu]

Dual meet national champion is wayyyyy cooler than national champion because of team points. But the dual meet tournament isn't as important to teams as the end of year one

[RandolphTJones]

A group of buddies and myself get together at  local watering hole every year to watch the finals together. Before that first whistle on day 1 hits we are all equally as excited for the team race as we are for individual match ups. Unfortunately the last couple years have lost some luster regarding the team race but I know it's still on even ground for all of us, and it's quite a large group of former wrestlers both high school and college level. 

[Dogbone]

You lost me at golf fanatics don't care about the Ryder Cup.  Most certainly are interested in the results and cheering for USA (assuming American).  

I don't know anyone who was "devastated" by the results of the NCAA Team Championship, but a lot of people certainly care about it and it makes the tournament more interesting when it is a competitive team race. 

And unquestionably, Cael and PSU donors care a lot about the team championship.  There is a reason they are bringing in mercenaries at their weakest weights and not just trying to develop RBYs backup to be the best he can be and see how it goes.   Micheal Beard was a low AA, but as soon as Dean was available they brought him in.  I don't think they did it because they don't care about the team race. 

[Offthemat]

Would this idea mean dropping dual matches and going to tournaments only, like FS?   Would it also apply to Worlds and Olympics?  It’s a long time till November, huh?

[SocraTease]

3 hours ago, PortaJohn said:

In horse racing they announce the horses name when they declare the winner.  Ponder that

I believe the horse is the real athlete.  The jockey might just be hitchhiking a ride.

[82bordeaux]

15 hours ago, PortaJohn said:

Never been to a BBQ among friends who are golf fanatics that cared about the Ryder Cup.

You need new golf friends. We have Ryder Cup parties at our club. You clearly have never been to one. The most fun golf event to watch in person bar none. Went to Oakland Hills and Medinah Ryder Cups and have tickets for Saturday and Sunday's rounds in Rome September 30th.

15 hours ago, PortaJohn said:

Universities are involved so we need to crown a team but at the end of the day it's an individual sport.

So this means Penn State won the NCAA Title in 2021 too???

[Jim L]

17 hours ago, PortaJohn said:

Never been to a BBQ among friends who are golf fanatics that cared about the Ryder Cup.  Not once have any of my wrestling buddies been devastated by the results of the Wrestling World Cup.  Does tennis have a team category?

 I get it.  Universities are involved so we need to crown a team but at the end of the day it's an individual sport.  I know we cant but I'd rather a format where we  removed this false idea that a team is actually competing 

There are so few fan bases who ever have a chance to even have their team in contention for a title, I would believe most fans are not that that passionate about team titles.  Iowa's and PSU's large and loud fanbases skew our perspective.  I was never on a team that competed for a title at any level, so maybe my perspective is warped, but I think it is all about having a wrestler on your favorite win or achieve AA status.

[jdowntown]

14 hours ago, SocraTease said:

Interesting question and issue.   

Baseball, football, soccer, basketball, hockey, lacrosse, volleyball, etc. are clearly team sports in the sense that:

(a) the players interact (e.g., pass the ball or puck around) on the field, court, or ice during a game with each other (members of their own team) and

(b) a score is kept such that there is only a winning or losing team (and not winning and losing individuals).

Wrestling (like tennis, gymnastics, boxing, swimming, and golf, for example) seems first of all to be an individual sport in a primary sense (with individuals competing directly against other  individuals), and then perhaps a team sport in a secondary sense.   

In this secondary sense:

(a) the participants on the team (if there is one) often train together, travel together, and support one another in significant ways and

(b) a team score (winner and loser) is often kept in addition to the individual scores (with winner and losers in matches, bouts, etc.)

There also appears to be a third category of a few sports, however, that possess both individual and team dimensions in an important way—a kind of hybrid realm.  Here, I'm thinking of track and field, cross country, rowing, and cycling.  Often, but not always, the individual works with members of their team in a symbiotic way, both to benefit their individual performance and the team performance (e.g., relay races in track, drafting off of team members in distance races and cycling, setting the pace, etc.).  But these sports can also easily become individual events where a team is unnecessary or non-existent.   Distance runners and cyclists might train with one another but compete on their own.

Given that wrestling is a high school and college sport in the US, it is inevitable that it is going to retain team dimensions and partisanship associated with the matches or tournaments. 

But at the freestyle level, it seems to become much more individualistic, even if some events (the Olympics, World Championships, and World Cup) have team aspects.

Hmm ...  Are horse races individual events with the jockey winning or losing or are they team events (wherein the horse is also an athlete teamed up closely with the jockey)?

This is a good analysis, but there is really one more dimension to wrestling. Weight classes. In swimming, the same person can compete in multiple events. Same with track, gymnastics, etc. In wrestling, you have individual weight classes that are mutually exclusive. A person can't compete at both 125 and 197 (or at least it does not make sense to). This lends itself well to the team concept of having someone at every weight. Tennis or golf, can have teams, but there is no fundamental reason to have them, as there is nothing mutually exclusive. Boxing has weight classes, but as a combat sport with longer and highly variable recovery times, dual meets or even tournaments don't naturally fit (yes they do tournaments at the olympics but it has its own problems) mostly they use the belt system with arranged one-off fights.

I guarantee you if the gave out team medals at the olympics (like they do for say gymnastics), people would care about it. But they don't so it is not really a thing.

[CHROMEBIRD]

6 hours ago, Ragu said:

Dual meet national champion is wayyyyy cooler than national champion because of team points. But the dual meet tournament isn't as important to teams as the end of year one

It would be nice if the sport had incentives and processes to make the dual season more exciting. For example:

1. Incentivize athletes and programs:
- Teams wrestle a regular (condensed?) conference schedule
- At end of regular season, x teams get selected for a dual championship series, similar to the bowl system in football
- Like bowl games, championship duals have sponsors and can give out swag bags with gift items (gear, watches, video game consoles, giftcards, etc. up to $1000 total value or whatever the NCAA will allow) to incentivize athletes. Higher prestige championships have better swag items.
- MOWs of each championship dual are eligible for a bonus gift 

... This mitigates "duals don't matter" mentality by giving wrestlers and teams a material reason to want to win duals. It also spreads the wealth so there are multiple postseason team champions. For example, PSU might win the National Dual Championship but team X can hang their hat on being the Asics Glen Brand Dual Champion or the US Marines Few & Proud Dual Champion (or whatever) which could be the equivalant of winning the Orange Bowl and Rose Bowl.

2. Create processes for coaches and teams:
- At start of dual, coin is flipped. Winning team picks weight class X to wrestle.
- Each team picks their wrestler at weight class X to send out 
- At end of the match, choice of weight class alternates between teams (the other team picks the next weight class Y to wrestle)
- Repeat until all weights are wrestled
- In the case of a tied team score at end of dual, official randomly picks a weight class out of a hat. Both teams send out a guy, even if they already wrestled, and the dual is settled by the winner of the match.

... This forces coaches to think more strategically about their lineup and make real time adjustments about who they send out. Increases likelihood of bumping wrestlers up or down if it gives the team a better chance of winning the dual. Makes duals more dynamic, creates more drama, and doesn't leave it to a boring Hwt match deciding an exciting dual.

 

I'm just spitballing, and some of these are ideas from the former board, but I'm using them to point out that there are things the sport can do to make the team aspect or wrestling actually matter.

[Formally140]

Porta John…. Aren’t you a hardcore PSU fan?

[PortaJohn]

24 minutes ago, Formally140 said:

Porta John…. Aren’t you a hardcore PSU fan?

Yes,  but hear me out.  This past NCAA tournament there wasn't a 165 finals match that I would've preferred over Carr vs O'Toole.  I was excited to see Yianni go for his 4th, was riding the Bonaccorsi train, and was happy to watch Mason Parris finish his career with an exclamation.  Four weights I was rooting for wrestlers over PSU guys.  Broken record but wrestling is an individual sport. As much as I love PSU I often cheer for wrestlers from other Universities over PSU wrestlers.  

My personal opinion is that many college wrestling fans have this false idea that the sport can grow by promoting the "team" aspect by having National Duals.   My belief is the best model to grow college wrestling would be similar to the UFC or professional boxing.  Promote the individual wrestlers.  

Edited April 27, 2023 by PortaJohn

[Formally140]

Just now, PortaJohn said:

Yes,  but hear me out.  This past NCAA tournament there wasn't a 165 finals match that I would've preferred over Carr vs O'Toole.  I was excited to see Yianni go for his 4th, was riding the Bonaccorsi train, and was happy to watch Mason Parris finish his career with an exclamation.  Four weights I was rooting for wrestlers over PSU guys.  Broken record but wrestling is an individual sport and as much as I love PSU I often cheer for wrestlers from other Universities.  

My personal opinion is that many college wrestling fans have this false idea that the sport can grow by promoting the "team" aspect by having National Duals.   My belief is the best model to grow college wrestling would be similar to the UFC or professional boxing.  Promote the individual wrestlers.  

It’s very easy to say something doesn’t matter when your team is dominating… extremely easy… 

It’s not a false idea. 
 

It’s also very easy to ignore many of the issues going on when your team is not being hurt by them 

[PortaJohn]

1 minute ago, Formally140 said:

It’s very easy to say something doesn’t matter when your team is dominating… extremely easy… 

It’s not a false idea. 
 

It’s also very easy to ignore many of the issues going on when your team is not being hurt by them 

I've been a PSU wrestling fan since the early 90's.  My opinion on this matter existed far before Cael arrived on the scene.  

[Formally140]

9 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

I've been a PSU wrestling fan since the early 90's.  My opinion on this matter existed far before Cael arrived on the scene.  

Arguing for it now the way you are after the way you defend/support PSU makes it look a certain way 

[PortaJohn]

4 minutes ago, Formally140 said:

Arguing for it now the way you are after the way you defend/support PSU makes it look a certain way 

ok

[Formally140]

14 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

ok

You can get mad.. but a hardcore penn state starting a thread saying “I mean, does the team title really matter”… 

yes, it looks a certain way