Cole and Connor Mirasola

[LJB]

"one size fits all" philosophies are silly...

they are easier for the average to contemplate, but, average is average, yes?

should we celebrate average or greatness?

[DocBB]

FWIW Ryder Rogotzke is 3-0 vs the Mirasola twins. 

[Preceptor]

Just wait until PSU realizes they can hire a good coach and brings Askren in. They will finally have a good coaching staff. Then it will be more than just an assembly of talent. 

[Threadkilla]

1 hour ago, Preceptor said:

Just wait until PSU realizes they can hire a good coach and brings Askren in. They will finally have a good coaching staff. Then it will be more than just an assembly of talent. 

The people from your vullage are missing ya.. 

[scourge165]

20 hours ago, Formally140 said:

There’s no inconsistency about not overdoing the little kiddy wrestling.. and not putting up with wannabe tuff guy parents.. which is exactly what he does… and then letting the more serious kids dial in when they’re in high school… 

Ok, so you're of the belief that he doesn't push the kids to start wrestling National Tournaments or to focus on Wrestling until their in HS?

There's an inconsistency. There's a whole other inconsistency when it comes to the parents. I kinda thought given the fact that he had one of those parents, he be more consistent, but if there's a kid he can get ahold of and slap an AWA next to their name, if they're good enough, the parents behavior doesn't change much.

On 3/1/2023 at 4:30 PM, Formally140 said:

Telling the more serious kids what to do if they want to get to the next level in no way changes my point about him not doing the the bad stuff that is making youth wrestling detrimental to the growth of the sport. 

And if those "more serious" kids are in 5th or 6th grade? 

You just used HS as your starting point. He very clearly starts well before then...and what he really does is he takes the best kids, the kids already doing it and then will kinda take over there.

 

Getting right down to it, it's Messenbrink who discourages pushing kids in Elementary or Middle School from overtraining and then trains the hell outta them when they get to HS. Did it at a parent, as a coach and it's why I think he's really the..."secret sauce" in the whole AWA philosophy. 

Messenbrink practices what he preaches. In fact, there was one kid who wasn't allowed at open mat and at some of the club practices because they were...a bit too competitive and maybe got a bit too upset when they ended up on the short end of the stick. That kid was actually not allowed to finish last year(2021-2022) at the open Gyms. John Messenbrink had a very close connection to him. 

This is part of the reason I think Mitchell Messenbrink is going to be a contender as soon as next year(wherever he ends up). He's so hypercompetitive, he's a smart kid, a mature kid and I think his Dad has helped reign him in.

[Theo Brixton]

26 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

And if those "more serious" kids are in 5th or 6th grade? 

You just used HS as your starting point. He very clearly starts well before then...and what he really does is he takes the best kids, the kids already doing it and then will kinda take over there.

 

Once a child starts to enter puberty, they are much more likely to take the initiative to train intensely and are more capable of handling the pressure of competition. This differs for every kid but 5-6th grade isn't an unreasonable time-frame to start ratcheting up the intensity of training if the (child's) goal is to be competitive at a higher level. If this is what Askren and Messenbrink are doing, then that is more or less on the mark. I think Kolat says something along these lines as well. The Mecca of wrestling essentially follows this model.

The only problem with this model is for the adults who use children as a vehicle for their own narcissism. 

[scourge165]

1 minute ago, Theo Brixton said:

Once a child starts to enter puberty, they are much more likely to take the initiative to train intensely and are more capable of handling the pressure of competition. This differs for every kid but 5-6th grade isn't an unreasonable time-frame to start ratcheting up the intensity of training if the (child's) goal is to be competitive at a higher level. If this is what Askren and Messenbrink are doing, then that is more or less on the mark. I think Kolat says something along these lines as well. The Mecca of wrestling essentially follows this model.

The only problem with this model is for the adults who use children as a vehicle for their own narcissism. 

It's a bit difficult to discuss this when there are two wildly different set of standards.

You're arguing your own beliefs. And I don't even disagree. I'd say 6th grade is about the perfect age to start to get more serious. That is NOT however the comment I was replying to;

 

1 hour ago, scourge165 said:

@Formally140There’s no inconsistency about not overdoing the little kiddy wrestling.. and not putting up with wannabe tuff guy parents.. which is exactly what he does… and then letting the more serious kids dial in when they’re in high school… 

So when the claim is made that he waits until HS...or that he doesn't suffer the toxic parents, it's just not true. 

And again, this idea that he's got this strict standard with parents who are too intense, it reminds me of the old saying in the NFL. "Be who you can afford to be." Charlie Millard's parents can afford to be a lot more obnoxious because...he's a stud and it helps the AWA brand(to be clear, I picked parents who specifically weren't over the top to make my point). 

 

[Formally140]

1 hour ago, scourge165 said:

It's a bit difficult to discuss this when there are two wildly different set of standards.

You're arguing your own beliefs. And I don't even disagree. I'd say 6th grade is about the perfect age to start to get more serious. That is NOT however the comment I was replying to;

 

So when the claim is made that he waits until HS...or that he doesn't suffer the toxic parents, it's just not true. 

And again, this idea that he's got this strict standard with parents who are too intense, it reminds me of the old saying in the NFL. "Be who you can afford to be." Charlie Millard's parents can afford to be a lot more obnoxious because...he's a stud and it helps the AWA brand(to be clear, I picked parents who specifically weren't over the top to make my point). 

 

You’re getting pedantic because instead of understanding there’s a middle ground between your La La lane of playing multiple sports in hs like it’s 1981…and having prepubescent kids overtrain…

If you want to quibble over exact ages.. cool. Literally everyone else gets my point. Especially because you’re ignoring the most important point… the AWA coaches don’t run off or completely ignore the kids who may take a couple years to catch on… which is what most “elite” clubs do 

[LJB]

i think the best clubs in the country probably do a better job of this than most realize...

but...

it is easy to lob grenades about what is "right" or "wrong" while not having to deal with 130 families a night...

[scourge165]

7 hours ago, Formally140 said:

You’re getting pedantic because instead of understanding there’s a middle ground between your La La lane of playing multiple sports in hs like it’s 1981…and having prepubescent kids overtrain…

If you want to quibble over exact ages.. cool. Literally everyone else gets my point. Especially because you’re ignoring the most important point… the AWA coaches don’t run off or completely ignore the kids who may take a couple years to catch on… which is what most “elite” clubs do 

LOL...yes...playing Multiple sports in High School stopped in 1981. Koy Hopke definitely doesn't play multiple sports. Ben Keuter definitely...single sport guy. 

 

Edit-And by the way, I did that about 15 years ago and...had a good amount of success vs say a...Chris Phillips who was an absolute hammer but was burned out by the time he got to HS and didn't want to Wrestle. Or COUNTLESS others who've had varied level of success without Wrestling 300 days a year and playing one sport. 

How many NFL players have played multiple sports or College HWTs?

The idea that you think it's so fantastical tells me you're also probably a little part of the problem. 

 

Also, isn't it "la la land?" Or did you actually mean La la lane?

 

Edited March 3, 2023 by scourge165

[scourge165]

On 3/2/2023 at 9:02 AM, LJB said:

"one size fits all" philosophies are silly...

they are easier for the average to contemplate, but, average is average, yes?

should we celebrate average or greatness?

What are you talking about? 

Why are your points always so vague and incomplete? "One size fits all philosophies are silly." No, they're not. You don't need a 6 year old Wrestling all over the Country and you don't need to freak out over his Wrestling. That size does "fit all." 

"Should we celebrate average or greatness?" 

Yeah, you were definitely that Dad going nuts in the corner of kids tournaments living vicariously through your kids. And that usually leads to VERY bad outcomes. Either kids quitting Wrestling...or, even worse, Wrestling Greco...

What Askren preaches is absolutely the right way to do it. What he practices...doesn't always match. That's the extent I'm going to keep talking about him.

Edited March 3, 2023 by scourge165

[LJB]

14 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

What are you talking about? 

Why are your points always so vague and incomplete? "One size fits all philosophies are silly." No, they're not. You don't need a 6 year old Wrestling all over the Country and you don't need to freak out over his Wrestling. That size does "fit all." 

"Should we celebrate average or greatness?" 

Yeah, you were definitely that Dad going nuts in the corner of kids tournaments living vicariously through your kids. And that usually leads to VERY bad outcomes. Either kids quitting Wrestling...or, even worse, Wrestling Greco...

What Askren preaches is absolutely the right way to do it. What he practices...doesn't always match. That's the extent I'm going to keep talking about him.

Keep living your best life, brother…

I hope things turn around for you…

[Formally140]

On 3/3/2023 at 2:09 PM, scourge165 said:

LOL...yes...playing Multiple sports in High School stopped in 1981. Koy Hopke definitely doesn't play multiple sports. Ben Keuter definitely...single sport guy. 

 

Edit-And by the way, I did that about 15 years ago and...had a good amount of success vs say a...Chris Phillips who was an absolute hammer but was burned out by the time he got to HS and didn't want to Wrestle. Or COUNTLESS others who've had varied level of success without Wrestling 300 days a year and playing one sport. 

How many NFL players have played multiple sports or College HWTs?

The idea that you think it's so fantastical tells me you're also probably a little part of the problem. 

 

Also, isn't it "la la land?" Or did you actually mean La la lane?

 

Buddy. I’m well aware you’ll double down on being pedantic. So here we go…

The amount of kids who can play more than 1-2 sports in high school has shrunk because of the direction of things… Especially because sports are so much more expensive now.. working class families can’t really always afford more than 1-2 sports… 
 

I kinda doubt youve been around nfl or DI football players that much if you think that they prove the multi sport thing. 
 

If you want to quibble over exact terms or use a known headcase as your thing that’s fine. 
 

If you want to hate on Askren because he’s vocal about a common but quiet view of Bono.. especially by former athletes of his… that’s fine