Interesting perspective

[Doublehalf]

57 minutes ago, Scouts Honor said:

tell me you know nothing of history without telling me

 

Tell me you know nothing of the principles of "the free market" without telling me. 

[Scouts Honor]

public gatherings were definitely controlled during 2020-2024

just ask wrestlers

it's simple. 

[whaletail]

2 hours ago, jross said:

I understand voting with principles... 

The punishment isn't getting a silver medal... it is the consequence of it.  2020 to 2024 was 1984.  It is the governed policies and culture downstream that is the punishment.  Forcing me to vaccinate or be fired is a punishment.  Forcing pronoun use or be written up is a punishment.  My collegues scowling at me for reading the same technical jargon (master server,  white/blacklist, etc.) that we both used yesterday is a punishment.  And so on.

"I did what I could" provided some comfort mentally while being dwarfed in real outcomes.

While you're correct that independent parties are not particularly useful in our current political system, the idea that 2020-2024 was some sort of Orwellian nightmare (at least politically) is incredibly hyperbolic.

A large company enacting a vaccination policy, with exceptions as necessary, is not Orwellian, it's smart business.

A company enacting a pronoun policy is not Orwellian, but again, good business, as it can protect them from being federally sued for discrimination, among other things.

Tne cultural norms changing in your work environment, such that it feels uncomfortable to say master server, is a little hard to believe, and also not Orwellian. It's simply the evolution of community norms, and something we all have to deal with. 

Federal employees acting like shock troops, illegally killing unarmed American citizens, and terrorizing politically targeted cities (Minneapolis), is Orwellian.

Demanding blue cities turn over voting records is Orwellian.

Government forcing doctors to treat specific conditions with politically determined therapies is Orwellian.

State governments requiring pregnant women to essentially register that status with the state, and precluding doctors from providing them medically appropriate care, for political/religious reasons, is Orwellian.  That its led to Ob/gyns fleeing the south, raising the infant mortality rate in the region is sad. That it's also killed women is criminal.

Having to prove to state investigators that your miscarriage was not an abortion is Orwellian.

State governments forcing schools to teach politically motivated curricula, demanding ETS change specific AP curricula for similar reasons, and hamfistedly banning books is both Orwellian, and embarrassing.

Direct federal funding for facial recognition companies, based on corporate ideology, and using those companies to further individual and party political will is Orwellian, and criminal.

 

 

[Scouts Honor]

what did any of your post have to do with free markets

[whaletail]

1 hour ago, Scouts Honor said:

tell me you know nothing of history without telling me

 

Please explain how his post illustrates a complete misunderstanding of history.

While we're waiting;

If we ever needed an electoral system to balance state power federally, we don't now.

And the idea that an individual, voting in a national election, should have his/her vote either amplified or minimized depending on the state he dwells, is ludicrous. If tradition demands the labyrinthian electoral process, at least award delegates (electoral votes) proportionally.

The only reason Republicans oppose direct national elections, where every vote counts, is because they nearly always lose the popular vote.

Nor does supporting an imbalanced democratic process indicate superior historical understanding.

[jross]

Off the top, this is how the gov and, through their influence, my workplace controlled me...

• I was told to vaccinate or be fired.  As a single provider for a family of five, what choice did I really have?
• Small businesses around me that I used were shut down.
• 6 feet social distancing
• No mask no entry to grocery stores
• Could not travel without vaccination evidence
• Could not access public parks
• Local governements with snitch lines
• Extended school closings; son had to withdrawal from language immersion program
• Stay at home for 2 weeks in isolation... then later to avoid multi-family gatherings
• Public mask mandate
• Sports cancelled

The gov controlled winners (big corp) and losers (small business) by deciding who would remain open.... What is essential and non essential, etc.

The gov controlled my language/thoughts as well.

• Gov influence tech companies to shadow-ban, down-rank, and deleted speech that challenged official narratives.  It was gaslighting and contributing anxiety to me when leading experts and data were suppressed and whats left is commentary that people like me are unreasonable to disagree.  The whole 2 + 2 is 5.  (this was legally proven in court BTW)
• I must use others pronouns or be written up.  I am encouraged to list my own pronouns on my profiles.
• I am scowled at for using technical jargon (whitelist/blacklist/master/etc) that everyone utilized the day before.
• BLM are peaceful riots
• 2020 Election is the most secure election in history
• I'm an anti-vaxxer for oppossing mandates
• CDC retroactively changes definition of vaccination from producing immunity to producing protection
• I'm a bigot for traditional thoughts
• Forced to study and use DEI, ESG vocabulary at work.
• Words that are offensive to me are equal to physical assault
• Non violent parent protestors are domestic terrorists
• America is not great, America was never great, MAGA is a slur
• There are an uncountable number of genders and bigot to think otherwise
• We don't have a border problem
• Illegal aliens are undocumented immigrants
• Pregnant woman are birthing people

Literally watching experts cancelled for speaking the truth... personally coerced to comply to keep my family financially secure.

That is Orwell.

Edited 9 hours ago by jross
english

[Doublehalf]

45 minutes ago, whaletail said:

While you're correct that independent parties are not particularly useful in our current political system, the idea that 2020-2024 was some sort of Orwellian nightmare (at least politically) is incredibly hyperbolic.

A large company enacting a vaccination policy, with exceptions as necessary, is not Orwellian, it's smart business.

A company enacting a pronoun policy is not Orwellian, but again, good business, as it can protect them from being federally sued for discrimination, among other things.

Tne cultural norms changing in your work environment, such that it feels uncomfortable to say master server, is a little hard to believe, and also not Orwellian. It's simply the evolution of community norms, and something we all have to deal with. 

Federal employees acting like shock troops, illegally killing unarmed American citizens, and terrorizing politically targeted cities (Minneapolis), is Orwellian.

Demanding blue cities turn over voting records is Orwellian.

Government forcing doctors to treat specific conditions with politically determined therapies is Orwellian.

State governments requiring pregnant women to essentially register that status with the state, and precluding doctors from providing them medically appropriate care, for political/religious reasons, is Orwellian.  That its led to Ob/gyns fleeing the south, raising the infant mortality rate in the region is sad. That it's also killed women is criminal.

Having to prove to state investigators that your miscarriage was not an abortion is Orwellian.

State governments forcing schools to teach politically motivated curricula, demanding ETS change specific AP curricula for similar reasons, and hamfistedly banning books is both Orwellian, and embarrassing.

Direct federal funding for facial recognition companies, based on corporate ideology, and using those companies to further individual and party political will is Orwellian, and criminal.

 

 

Damn... This post really dropped the hammer

[jross]

Controllers...

• 55% D vs 19% R support fining Americans who choose not to get a COVID-19 vaccine. 
• 59% D vs 17% R favor a government policy requiring that citizens remain confined to their homes at all times, except for emergencies, if they refuse to get a COVID-19 vaccine. 
• 48% D vs 14% R think federal and state governments should be able to fine or imprison individuals who publicly question the efficacy of the existing COVID-19 vaccines on social media, television, radio, or in online or digital publications.
• 45% D vs 14% R favor governments requiring citizens to temporarily live in designated facilities or locations if they refuse to get a COVID-19 vaccine. 
• 47% D vs 13% R favor a gov tracking program of those who won't get the COVID-19 vaccine.
• 29% D vs 7% R support temporarily removing parents’ custody of their children if parents refuse to take the COVID-19 vaccine. 

https://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/partner_surveys/jan_2022/covid_19_democratic_voters_support_harsh_measures_against_unvaccinated

https://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/partner_surveys/jan_2022/crosstabs_heartland_covid_january_5_2022

Putting enourmous psychological and economic stress on a healthy population rather than balanced approach for the tiny population with severe risk.  And this was known early on but suppressed and the science cancelled.

[Doublehalf]

29 minutes ago, jross said:

Off the top, this is how the gov and, through their influence, my workplace controlled me...

• I was told to vaccinate or be fired.  As a single provider for a family of five, what choice did I really have?
• Small businesses around me that I used were shut down.
• 6 feet social distancing
• No mask no entry to grocery stores
• Could not travel without vaccination evidence
• Could not access public parks
• Local governements with snitch lines
• Extended school closings; son had to withdrawal from language immersion program
• Stay at home for 2 weeks in isolation... then later to avoid multi-family gatherings
• Public mask mandate
• Sports cancelled

The gov controlled winners (big corp) and losers (small business) by deciding who would remain open.... What is essential and non essential, etc.

The gov controlled my language/thoughts as well.

• Gov influence tech companies to shadow-ban, down-rank, and deleted speech that challenged official narratives.  It was gaslighting and contributing anxiety to me when leading experts and data were suppressed and whats left is commentary that people like me are unreasonable to disagree.  The whole 2 + 2 is 5.  (this was legally proven in court BTW)
• I must use others pronouns or be written up.  I am encouraged to list my own pronouns on my profiles.
• I am scowled at for using technical jargon (whitelist/blacklist/master/etc) that everyone utilized the day before.
• BLM are peaceful riots
• 2020 Election is the most secure election in history
• I'm an anti-vaxxer for oppossing mandates
• CDC retroactively changes definition of vaccination from producing immunity to producing protection
• I'm a bigot for traditional thoughts
• Forced to study and use DEI, ESG vocabulary at work.
• Words that are offensive to me are equal to physical assault
• Non violent parent protestors are domestic terrorists
• America is not great, America was never great, MAGA is a slur
• There are an uncountable number of genders and bigot to think otherwise
• We don't have a border problem
• Illegal aliens are undocumented immigrants
• Pregnant woman are birthing people

Literally watching experts cancelled for speaking the truth... personally coerced to comply to keep my family financially secure.

That is Orwell.

This paints a picture of an old man that has not evolved with society. The mischaracterization and hyperbole in the post above is off the charts.

Using certain language controls you? Maybe you still want to call black people by a certain N word? I swear you would have been one of the people saying "why do they get to use the same water flountain as me?? Now I'm not allowed to sit in front of the bus!?!?- they are controlling me!"

Standing 6 feet apart to lower the spread of a virus we hadn't figured out yet that was overloading the healthcare system??? Oh the humanity! 
 

How dare they make me wear a mask so that if I cough or sneeze, I'm not u knowingly shedding virus...

Half of the shit you listed happened under Trump...

[jross]

1 hour ago, whaletail said:

A large company enacting a vaccination policy, with exceptions as necessary, is not Orwellian, it's smart business.

A company enacting a pronoun policy is not Orwellian, but again, good business, as it can protect them from being federally sued for discrimination, among other things.

It's Orwell. Vaccines have always been an option. After Biden issued Executive Order 14042, our CEO said on stage (my words from memory) "I am a doctor... You all will get [Covid] vaccinated. You are stupid if you do not. You can leave or you will be fired." I was a manager and witnessing employee religious exemption requests being denied. Yes, my company was smart, as was I. What choice did we have but to be smart to maintain our livelihood? Another word for it is totalitarian coercion.

Edited 8 hours ago by jross
not all vax required, just covid

[jross]

1 hour ago, whaletail said:

Tne cultural norms changing in your work environment, such that it feels uncomfortable to say master server, is a little hard to believe, and also not Orwellian. It's simply the evolution of community norms, and something we all have to deal with. 

Yesterday the words were fine.  Today the words are not fine.  What changed was government issued Executive Order 13985 and Executive Order 14035, which legally mandated that Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Accessibility (DEIA) action plan be implemented across the federal government.  My corporation needed to align with government those metrics for Fed business...  

The government changed misidentifying genders as harassment and a hostile work environment.  CISA helped "harmful speech" to be treated as a security threat...  NIST updated their inclusive language doctrine.  Let's remember ESG ideology scores assigned to companies for funding...  and government does contracts to companies adhering to its guidance, NIST, etc... and you get coerced compliance.

On technical jargon (master/slave/whitelist/blacklist)... it came out of BLM...

• https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2021/04/nists-inclusive-language-guidance-aims-clarity-standards-publications
• https://archive.is/20210413122151/https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/13/technology/racist-computer-engineering-terms-ietf.html

Edited 7 hours ago by jross

[jross]

2 hours ago, whaletail said:

Federal employees acting like shock troops, illegally killing unarmed American citizens, and terrorizing politically targeted cities (Minneapolis), is Orwellian.

Demanding blue cities turn over voting records is Orwellian.

Government forcing doctors to treat specific conditions with politically determined therapies is Orwellian.

State governments requiring pregnant women to essentially register that status with the state, and precluding doctors from providing them medically appropriate care, for political/religious reasons, is Orwellian.  That its led to Ob/gyns fleeing the south, raising the infant mortality rate in the region is sad. That it's also killed women is criminal.

Having to prove to state investigators that your miscarriage was not an abortion is Orwellian.

State governments forcing schools to teach politically motivated curricula, demanding ETS change specific AP curricula for similar reasons, and hamfistedly banning books is both Orwellian, and embarrassing.

Direct federal funding for facial recognition companies, based on corporate ideology, and using those companies to further individual and party political will is Orwellian, and criminal.

Okay so I'll assume you are correct because our government does stupid things no matter who is in charge.

Lying about what occurred - Yep.

Voting records? - Depends. There is no problem with knowing if I voted, just who I voted for. I would welcome the gov to audit my state to identify illegals, dead people, etc. for criminal voting. I'm dissapointed if audits are NOT occurring... Fraud could happen with the opposition not following the voter ID requirement, and certainly with mail in voting. 

Gov controlling treatments? - Definitely not always but it can be.

What is the context for woman to register they are pregnant?

Having to prove miscarriage is not an abortion? - Yep

There is nothing embarrassing about protecting children from topics better left to parents than schools. Its rather embarrassing to think the school has a mandate to teach taboo topics. Topics at the right time, with informed parent consent... I need to think deeper about how the government controlling the government is an Orwell concern. I can't think the majority of parents wants the government teaching their kids the content banned in books. And I suspect these banned books are easily available to most outside of schools. Or keep them in school, in a locked room, where only kids with parent permission can go grab. Silly short-sighted idea but you get the idea.

Flock and facial recognition, etc. and so on. Yep.

Edited 6 hours ago by jross

[Scouts Honor]

2 hours ago, whaletail said:

Please explain how his post illustrates a complete misunderstanding of history.

While we're waiting;

If we ever needed an electoral system to balance state power federally, we don't now.

And the idea that an individual, voting in a national election, should have his/her vote either amplified or minimized depending on the state he dwells, is ludicrous. If tradition demands the labyrinthian electoral process, at least award delegates (electoral votes) proportionally.

The only reason Republicans oppose direct national elections, where every vote counts, is because they nearly always lose the popular vote.

Nor does supporting an imbalanced democratic process indicate superior historical understanding.

if we hadn't had open borders for the last 50 years... i might agree with you.

[jross]

Tis one of those double think exercises where the party that cares about the interests of the minorities wants the president chosen based on the majority.

[Scouts Honor]

2 hours ago, Doublehalf said:

This paints a picture of an old man that has not evolved with society. The mischaracterization and hyperbole in the post above is off the charts.

Using certain language controls you? Maybe you still want to call black people by a certain N word? I swear you would have been one of the people saying "why do they get to use the same water flountain as me?? Now I'm not allowed to sit in front of the bus!?!?- they are controlling me!"

Standing 6 feet apart to lower the spread of a virus we hadn't figured out yet that was overloading the healthcare system??? Oh the humanity! 
 

How dare they make me wear a mask so that if I cough or sneeze, I'm not u knowingly shedding virus...

Half of the shit you listed happened under Trump...

so you are not only christophobic, misogynistic, racist

you now admit to being ageist 

[jross]

Shh.  the facts didn't bother those in charge...  https://didlaw.com/blacklist-is-not-a-racist-term-rules-employment-tribunal
 

These words are offensive.  Thankfully we have NIST to correct us.

• whitelist is allowlist
• blacklist is denylist
• blackmail is extortion
• master is primary
• slave is secondary
• male/female connection is plug/socket
• manmade hazard is a hazard made by humans
• the needy is persons experiencing material poverty

https://web.archive.org/web/20210607215456/https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/ir/2021/NIST.IR.8366.pdf

[jross]

2 hours ago, Doublehalf said:

This paints a picture of an old man that has not evolved with society. The mischaracterization and hyperbole in the post above is off the charts.

Using certain language controls you? Maybe you still want to call black people by a certain N word? I swear you would have been one of the people saying "why do they get to use the same water flountain as me?? Now I'm not allowed to sit in front of the bus!?!?- they are controlling me!"

Standing 6 feet apart to lower the spread of a virus we hadn't figured out yet that was overloading the healthcare system??? Oh the humanity! 
 

How dare they make me wear a mask so that if I cough or sneeze, I'm not u knowingly shedding virus...

Half of the shit you listed happened under Trump...

When the Covid information was unknown, I did what was necessary.

When Covid information became known almost immediately, I watched the actions of the government, corporations, media, and population in bewilderment and horror.

What caused you to leap to the racism conclusion?  Explain that logic to me if you can.

Please use my words rather than whatever image you are projecting onto me.  I assue you its a batshit conclusion.

[jross]

2 hours ago, Doublehalf said:

The mischaracterization and hyperbole in the post above is off the charts.

Even if it wasn't exactly 1984 through and through, the coercion I experienced caused anxiety and depression that I will recall for the next 45 years.

The great part of sharing my personal experience, is that you can not refute it.  It was mine.

[jross]

@Doublehalf - A question...

How do I (e.g. Doublehalf) respond when someone takes the time to share their personal lived experience, when it challenges my (e.g. Doublehalf) own perspective?  Is it to invent strawmen, deflect, and attack?  I am a good person.  Why am I doing that?

[Doublehalf]

2 hours ago, jross said:

Even if it wasn't exactly 1984 through and through, the coercion I experienced caused anxiety and depression that I will recall for the next 45 years.

The great part of sharing my personal experience, is that you can not refute it.  It was mine.

The great thing about being on an open forum is that when someone says something so obviously hyperbolic and mischarcterized as to what really happened, I can then comment on it being so. 
 

You and millions and millions of others experience anxiety and depression. To say it's all because someone had you stand 6 feet apart, and wear a mask to the grocery store probably means you should find a new therapist or change SSRI's.

[Doublehalf]

3 hours ago, jross said:

When the Covid information was unknown, I did what was necessary.

When Covid information became known almost immediately, I watched the actions of the government, corporations, media, and population in bewilderment and horror.

What caused you to leap to the racism conclusion?  Explain that logic to me if you can.

Please use my words rather than whatever image you are projecting onto me.  I assue you its a batshit conclusion.

I merely was observing a different point in history where people had the same thoughts as you and considered it to be "infringing" on their freedom or "controlling" them. 
 

There are always certain sides of history that when looking back, there was a clear dividing line to be on. 

Slave owners/non-slave owners

people that fought against civil rights/ those that fought for civil rights

people that beat up African Americans for sitting in a diner/ those that marched with them across a bridge 

Those that didn't want black kids to go to school with white kids/ those that fought against segregation 

Those that revere confederate generals and fly the confederate flag/ Those that dont and realize the pain the confederacy put the country through 

Those that refused to wear masks to avoid passing sickness to their fellow countrymen /those that didn't have a problem wearing a piece of cloth on their face

Those that use the N word/ Those that realized certain words are dehumanizing and adjusted accordingly 

Those that were repulsed by gay people and said they weren't allowed to get married - and those that accepted their choice to live who they wanted 

Those that refuse to listen to kids when they say they feel different and deny them respect/ those that do listen and try to understand and adjust 

Those that thought Nazis marching in Charlottesville consisted of "good" people and ran over counter protesters- you get the picture...

and on and on and on 

Its not hard to find a through line of these kinds of people having overlapping views throughout history and being cut from similar cloths. Am I maybe over generalizing? Sure, a little. But I would be willing to bet big the people that beat the hell out of black people and didn't want black kids in schools back then are the same people that support MAGA today and scream that the sky is falling when someone uses a bathroom of their self identified gender. 
 

It is possible for people to change their minds and we always have to be welcoming and leave room for that. But I will never tolerate hate and the inability to see past our own 4 walls. I too have a family and want to take care of them the best I can. I just would never think helping to stop the spread of a virus that hasn't happened on a scale since the Spanish flu was in some way contradictory to that. 
 

History always repeats itself, it just comes dressed a little differently each time. 
 

 

Edited 2 hours ago by Doublehalf

[Offthemat]

SMH. But I see what most of the problem is.  

[JimmySpeaks]

5 hours ago, jross said:

Tis one of those double think exercises where the party that cares about the interests of the minorities wants the president chosen based on the majority.

This