Socialized Health Care- Nuts and Bolts Discussion

[Doublehalf]

This thread is not intended for mud slinging- we have every other thread on this forum for that.

I have some knowledge of healthcare and how care/reimbursements/treatment/insurance plans/ intersect.

However, it is still a complex system that I admittedly don't know everything about.

my question is- What are the main policy disagreements of moving to this form of healthcare? 
 

My understanding is to fund this type of plan taxes would raise to cover this but ultimately, most would pay far less annually than they are now. 
 

Take a HDHP like I have- annually I am paying on the realm of $7800 in premiums, a deductible of $4000 with in network OOP max $8000 and non network OOP of $16000 (on top of premiums) I also contribute roughly $6000 to an HSA for the tax benefits. 
 

The math I have seen are families with an average income of $150,000, would be taxed around $7000 a year. 

If someone on an HDHP had reached their OOP in network max, they'd be looking at spending close to $16,000 vs $7000. It would also cut down on all the insurance bullshit that goes on that no one likes and take a lot of the cost off of employers that are also contributing to employee plans. 

It is true wait times for elective procedures are longer- I've spoken to Canadian physicians and some waits can  for an elective procedure can be 6 months but urgent care is treated immediately if one needs to use the Emergency department. There are waits for elective procedures in the US that can also take months. Just to get a kids' tonsils out was a 8 month wait. 

I'll add that so many health systems and IDNs are struggling financially right now. Mid size IDNs in my geography only have cash flow to allow them to continue to treat patients for 6 days if all incoming revenues ceased. That is a crazy place to be and they are far from alone. 

What are some other reasons government funded healthcare would be bad for citizens? No system is going to be perfect but is there somewhere we could get to that people by and large would say they could live with it? 

 

Edited Monday at 01:06 PM by Doublehalf

[jross]

Priorities 

[Doublehalf]

11 minutes ago, jross said:

Priorities 

Pretend it is a top priority for a moment.

[red viking]

58 minutes ago, jross said:

Priorities 

Like tariffs and the Iran war, and keeping the epstein files locked away. Priorities!!!

[Gene Mills Fan]

You get what you pay for.  Check what the doctors make in these countries. No ones going to get a doctorate to get a government job. Soon Can't pick your doctor. Demand for doctor visits will increase substantially. Doctor visit fees would need to be reduced or the system will fail. Doctors would be making less.  Existing doctors would not be able to handle new scheduling. New criteria lessening PHD requirement would be needed for all these new visitations. The number of competent people willing to study would decrease due to wage reduction. There would be a pool of people waiting to be scheduled to see a doctor. The quality of service would erode.  

[jross]

27 minutes ago, red viking said:

Like tariffs and the Iran war, and keeping the epstein files locked away. Priorities!!!

Priorities within healthcare... time, cost, quality, innovation, transparency, fraud, legality, choice, control...  but sure also health care over the other priorities in a way no president has ever done.

The main point I like about socialized healthcare is eliminating medical bankruptcy.

 

Edited Monday at 02:55 PM by jross

[Doublehalf]

44 minutes ago, Gene Mills Fan said:

You get what you pay for.  Check what the doctors make in these countries. No ones going to get a doctorate to get a government job. Soon Can't pick your doctor. Demand for doctor visits will increase substantially. Doctor visit fees would need to be reduced or the system will fail. Doctors would be making less.  Existing doctors would not be able to handle new scheduling. New criteria lessening PHD requirement would be needed for all these new visitations. The number of competent people willing to study would decrease due to wage reduction. There would be a pool of people waiting to be scheduled to see a doctor. The quality of service would erode.  

Some of this I agree with but some of it is already happening.

In numerous  instances there are already long waits to get into physician appointments- mainly physicians that specialize in certain areas of medicine. 
 

There are also numerous instances when people can't pick doctors that live down the street from them because they are considered "out of network" by their insurance provider. This isn't an outlier either, happens all the time. 
 

I do think payment of physicians would need to be worked out which I know some other countries have a system to do this as well as more NPs PAs would be needed which is t a bad thing if they are not lowering standards.

More people going to get the care they need and overloading the system is a legitimate concern but ultimately if the infrastructure existed, it would collectively lead to a healthier population across the country and over time o would tho k a byproduct of a healthier population would be less stress on the healthcare system down the line.

[red viking]

36 minutes ago, jross said:

Priorities within healthcare... time, cost, quality, innovation, transparency, fraud, legality, choice, control...  but sure also health care over the other priorities in a way no president has ever done.

The main point I like about socialized healthcare is eliminating medical bankruptcy.

 

Getting the scumbag greedy pvt sector out of the picture wouid essentially eliminate the fraud. Govt funds the services directly. 

You can still offer overpriced pvt services for the fat cats that want to pay for that. 

Edited Monday at 03:28 PM by red viking

[jross]

People commit fraud, and the governement is people.

[red viking]

1 hour ago, jross said:

People commit fraud, and the governement is people.

How do we get any significant fraud when govt is doing and paying for the services directly? Some fraud can happen in any situation but it would be a lot more limited than the current corrupt situation 

[Lipdrag]

4 hours ago, Doublehalf said:

What are some other reasons government funded healthcare would be bad for citizens?

The Constitution. 

If 81 million people who voted for Joe Biden want to form a mutual benefit society and pay each others' bills THEN DO IT!!!  This would be a bigger socialized medicine population than any in Europe.  

If any individual state wants to do it THEN DO IT!!!  Modify your own constitution if needed and do it.  Just leave the rest of us alone.

[jross]

18 minutes ago, red viking said:

How do we get any significant fraud when govt is doing and paying for the services directly? Some fraud can happen in any situation but it would be a lot more limited than the current corrupt situation 

Why is there billions in fraud in Canada and the UK?

[Lipdrag]

2 hours ago, red viking said:

 . . . scumbag greedy pvt sector out of the picture . . . fat cats . . . 

4 hours ago, Doublehalf said:

This thread is not intended for mud slinging

 

Mini -rv, your daddy DaVik is the first - and only - to sling mud.  Again.  Of course.

[jross]

8 minutes ago, Lipdrag said:

The Constitution. 

If 81 million people who voted for Joe Biden want to form a mutual benefit society and pay each others' bills THEN DO IT!!!  This would be a bigger socialized medicine population than any in Europe.  

If any individual state wants to do it THEN DO IT!!!  Modify your own constitution if needed and do it.  Just leave the rest of us alone.

Vermont didn't want to pay for it.  https://politifact.com/factchecks/2017/sep/20/sean-duffy/vermont-single-payer-was-scrapped-because-it-was-g/

[wrestlingguy]

The thing that always gets me is how much hospitals, doctors, etc bill to the insurance company because they know it will get paid. If you ask what the cash price is, without insurance, it's significantly less.

Health insurance companies are greedy.

[Offthemat]

You really want to convert the best medical care system in the world to the efficiency of the Department of Motor Vehicles, or the EPA?

[Gene Mills Fan]

1 hour ago, red viking said:

How do we get any significant fraud when govt is doing and paying for the services directly? Some fraud can happen in any situation but it would be a lot more limited than the current corrupt situation 

USPS is facing significant financial losses — nearly $10 billion in 2024 and a projected $6.5 billion loss in 2025 — with high personnel and retirement costs Sharyl Attkisson.
Congressional leaders have urged Postmaster General Louis DeJoy to balance cost‑effective measures with improved service, noting that USPS remains “largely inefficient and unreliable” for many Americans Sharyl Attkisson.

[Rassling]

25 minutes ago, wrestlingguy said:

The thing that always gets me is how much hospitals, doctors, etc bill to the insurance company because they know it will get paid. If you ask what the cash price is, without insurance, it's significantly less.

Health insurance companies are greedy.

My Mom is 92 and I’ve attended all her doctor and hospital appointments over the last 20 years and I have seen first hand the creative theft that goes on between healthcare people and insurance companies.  

[wrestlingguy]

2 minutes ago, Rassling said:

My Mom is 92 and I’ve attended all her doctor and hospital appointments over the last 20 years and I have seen first hand the creative theft that goes on between healthcare people and insurance companies.  

I want to be the guy getting the commission for selling the wire mesh coils that they bill $10K a coil for, and I needed 9 of them.

[Rassling]

By the way double, excellent topic and thanks for sharing your experience with us. There’s alot of knowledgeable dudes commenting on the subject in here so cudos to you for getting everyone to come to the table. 

[red viking]

34 minutes ago, Gene Mills Fan said:

USPS is facing significant financial losses — nearly $10 billion in 2024 and a projected $6.5 billion loss in 2025 — with high personnel and retirement costs Sharyl Attkisson.
Congressional leaders have urged Postmaster General Louis DeJoy to balance cost‑effective measures with improved service, noting that USPS remains “largely inefficient and unreliable” for many Americans Sharyl Attkisson.

You will NOT be more efficient by privatizing it. If that's your angle, good luck. 

[Rassling]

6 minutes ago, wrestlingguy said:

I want to be the guy getting the commission for selling the wire mesh coils that they bill $10K a coil for, and I needed 9 of them.

My former career involved calling on the same people pharmaceutical companies called on back in the day and the stories we would hear of major brand reps providing incentives to doctors and drug wholesalers who push their products over others was ridiculous and downright morally wrong. They since stopped that practice nationwide but dishonesty in the way of grossly overcharging these insurance still exists and is getting worse by the day.

[mspart]

Having the government run any thing is a recipe for bad anything.   There is too much corruption within the government and outside of government to make it work properly.   Look at Medicare.   

https://medicare.chir.georgetown.edu/beyond-insolvency-the-bigger-picture-of-medicares-2026-financial-outlook/

Medicare’s Hospital Insurance (HI) Trust Fund Projected to Reach Insolvency in 2033

This due to fraud within and without.   This due to the ponzi scheme of making current wage earners pay for the medicare for retired individuals.   There are less kids than baby boomers retiring.   You can do the math.  

Vermont tried it and then got rid of it.   That should be a lesson as Vermont is not a Red State.   

mspart

 

[Rassling]

1 minute ago, mspart said:

Having the government run any thing is a recipe for bad anything.   There is too much corruption within the government and outside of government to make it work properly.   Look at Medicare.   

https://medicare.chir.georgetown.edu/beyond-insolvency-the-bigger-picture-of-medicares-2026-financial-outlook/

Medicare’s Hospital Insurance (HI) Trust Fund Projected to Reach Insolvency in 2033

This due to fraud within and without.   This due to the ponzi scheme of making current wage earners pay for the medicare for retired individuals.   There are less kids than baby boomers retiring.   You can do the math.  

Vermont tried it and then got rid of it.   That should be a lesson as Vermont is not a Red State.   

mspart

 

agreed - today’s modern gov is corrupt through and through - both sides of the fence. 

[red viking]

Just now, mspart said:

Having the government run any thing is a recipe for bad anything.   There is too much corruption within the government and outside of government to make it work properly.   Look at Medicare.   

https://medicare.chir.georgetown.edu/beyond-insolvency-the-bigger-picture-of-medicares-2026-financial-outlook/

Medicare’s Hospital Insurance (HI) Trust Fund Projected to Reach Insolvency in 2033

This due to fraud within and without.   This due to the ponzi scheme of making current wage earners pay for the medicare for retired individuals.   There are less kids than baby boomers retiring.   You can do the math.  

Vermont tried it and then got rid of it.   That should be a lesson as Vermont is not a Red State.   

mspart

 

The quasi govt system maximizes fraud because govt pays but companies reap the profits. Individuals and companies want those reimbursement checks. 

Fraud could be cut by 90 to 95% by making it 110% private or 110% government. Since even the wingers want to pay for Healthcare for all elderly and people going to the ER either way, the ONLY VIABLE WAY TO LARGELY ELIMINATE FRAUD IS SINGLE PAYER SYSTEM (FED GOVT)