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Jamie_Taco

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Posts posted by Jamie_Taco

    This is just getting ridiculous

    in College Wrestling

    Posted

    Also, thanks for explaining what a silver platter means LOL. Again, where are you getting these statements? I never said PSU got anything handed to them on a silver platter, so where is that coming from? I said Iowa never recruited like PSU is currently recruiting and then provided the documented facts to back that up. You don't like the recruiting rankings from back in the day, and that's fine, but it doesn't make them any less real lol.

    Again, it's my facts (the rankings) vs your opinions. Pretty easy to poo on rankings after you know how it all panned out 🥴.

    This is just getting ridiculous

    in College Wrestling

    Posted

    3 hours ago, scourge165 said:

    I didn't see you say it anywhere...which is why I didn't reply to it. The term "silver platter," means it's just handed to them. Not that they're just paying guys to come there.

     

    I'm not a PSU fan dude(I've ALSO said I don't think this is good for the sport in general). I just find your logic fundamentally flawed. You're using ONE ranking reference from what may as well be the stone age as compared to now. I believe you're wrong and I think you realize that, particularly in relation to Alger, but just in general. "Top 10," back then. That's just a guess of guys at that weight. NOW it's guys who are Wrestling each other REGULARLY. A guy like Clayton Whiting would have been #1 coming in and beating an Iowa starter before his Sr year in HS. He was the...what, 20th ranked recruit? 


    You had one FRACTION of the information available to create a "rankings" system. 

    Again, I just don't believe you believe the rankings today and the rankings from pre-internet are even remotely comparable.

     

    Now...if you want to talk about the classes that PSU has coming in...THAT is different and that is getting a little ridiculous. That's almost like OSU's '22 class but in back to back years. Especially if Hopke ends up there.

    Holy shit. My "logic" is based on actual recruiting rankings. Yours is off your opinion 30+ years after the fact. Lol how TF is this so hard for you to grasp? 

    This is just getting ridiculous

    in College Wrestling

    Posted

    30 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

    Wehereas PSU, they're the bag guys in this story! They don't work or develop their Wrestlers, it's all just handed to them on a silver platter!

    I also forgot to respond to this and couldn't just leave it lol. Again, where did I say anything about PSU not developing guys and saying it's all about the bag man? The fact is, combined with development, they are recruiting insanely well. Better than we've ever seen a program recruit at this level (and the senior level with NLWC). Just because the two programs and dynasties were built differently doesn't make one morally better than the other.

    Honestly, you seem to be the one with the insecurities about how PSU has built its dynasty.

    This is just getting ridiculous

    in College Wrestling

    Posted

    1 minute ago, scourge165 said:

    You keep saying this while ignoring...Gable wasn't the only coach recruiting him, NOR was he the only coach in the driveway.

    He WAS however the coach that convinced the kid from the family that had very little money to turn down the full ride for a 40%.

    And sure, it helped he was from Iowa. It also helped that Gable had access to plane to fly out and recruit Wrestlers whenever he wanted.

    Lots of things helped Iowa after Gable built their program up, but it seems as though you REALLY just need it to be this story of a bunch of rag tag Wrestlers who weren't any good until Dan Gable put his magic hands on him and made them GREAT...whereas PSU, they're the bag guys in this story! They don't work or develop their Wrestlers, it's all just handed to them on a silver platter!

     

    The way these recruiting rankings were put together back then...if you can't see how inherently flawed they'd be just based on the tools at hand, then I can't help you(but I don't think you want to be helped). 


    Iowa was great. They dominated the sport. They're STILL the #2 program...it just isn't close right now. 

    Dude, I never said anything close to Gable just taking ragtag guys. Not at all. I posted the recruiting numbers for both coaches, which are what they are, even if you don't agree with them 30-40 years later. My first post in this thread showed that Gable had top recruits throughout his career. Not as many as you might think, but he obviously got top-rated kids to Iowa City.

    I also said Gable was a master motivator and great at evaluating and developing talent. Again, see Chris Campbell. This idea from some that he was recruiting like PSU is recruiting is what I am arguing against.

    And you are right that Iowa is #2 right now. They are #2 all-time behind Okie State and #2 currently behind PSU. Quite a ways behind in both, sadly (for me lol). However, this conversation really has nothing to do with that. Where was the PSU program ranked in the 80s and 90s?

    This is just getting ridiculous

    in College Wrestling

    Posted · Edited by Jamie_Taco

    6 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

    It's not looking back. It's look AT THE TIME and seeing a 3X State Champ, JR National Champ who had two coaches in his driveway and thinking...the Asics All American team is not the ultimate authority on who the top ranked Wrestlers were and that JUUUUST maybe a time before the internet and the recruiting showcases and the other National Tournaments, one Wrestler not showing up on one list is less indicative of how good of a recruit he was than the coaches  who were AT HIS HOUSE trying to sign him the minute he was eligible to sign.

     

    But...go back to your schooling!

    Ah yes, so Gable was able to evaluate talent better than the rankings system and most coaches. Again, I already agreed with this, but we are talking about stockpiling the top HS recruits, which is based on a ranking system.

    It also helped that Royce was born and raised in Iowa City.

    This is just getting ridiculous

    in College Wrestling

    Posted

    Just now, scourge165 said:

    Same here. If you want to argue that Royce Alger(of all the Wrestlers) wasn't a top recruit because it makes you feel like you REALLY earned it and PSU isn't...whatever.

    Bottom line is Penn State is absolutely destroying the field.

    You're arguing it but have not done a single thing to prove it besides sharing a story you read about 30 years after his recruitment. I provided the actual rankings from 1983. It doesn't matter if you think they are wrong or not. They are the rankings.

    So I will ask one more time. Please show us ANY other ranking system from Royce's senior year that had him listed as a top recruit. Do it or just take the L.

    Also, who TF is arguing that PSU isn't destroying the field? I think we all agree there lol.

    This is just getting ridiculous

    in College Wrestling

    Posted

    Just now, scourge165 said:

    Ok...I ACTUALLY provided facts. Dan Gable didn't know who Tom Ryan was. Tom Ryan showed up at Iowa as a walk on to Wrestle for Gable and ended up in the National Finals.


    And that you showed me a list of All-American's and Royce Alger wasn't on it simply only tells me that one list...is a comically bad one.

    Again, verbal with UNI for a full scholarship.

    Iowa shows up with 40% 15 minutes before signing day...before MIDNIGHT on signing day with the UNI coach in the driveway, and Alger flips to Iowa.

    That should all you need to know.


    But for some strange reason, you need it to have been tougher for Iowa? I don't know. I'm still waiting for those class rankings you promised. All you did was show the AA teams by weight and the first two I looked at had Iowa Wrestlers in there and absolutely ZERO class rankings. 

    You were right about one story and one wrestler over a 21-year career 😂. I thanked you for educating me but it does very little to prove anyone trying to say that Iowa stockpiled top recruits.

    If you think the ASIC All-American lists are comically bad, I encourage you to link us to a different ranking system from 1983 that had Alger on it.

    • Haha 1

    This is just getting ridiculous

    in College Wrestling

    Posted

    1 minute ago, scourge165 said:

    Ok...so lets say Royce Alger wasn't a top recruit.

    He had two D1 coaches at his house 15 minutes before Midnight and Dan Gable thought he was a big enough recruit to personally go there and try and convince him to flip from UNI to Iowa...and he did it.

    He didn't even have to recruit Brinzer or Ryan(I didn't know he didn't recruit Brinzer, just taking your word on that one).

    I mean, we have to say that because again, he wasn't a top-rated recruit according to the people who actually ranked HS recruits back then. This isn't up for debate. If you want to say that Gable could evaluate talent and ability better than most, sure, I agree with you there, but he wasn't just taking the top recruits at the time.

    I didn't know that story about Ryan, so thank you for sharing. You can go add one more top wrestler to Gable's recruits. It still doesn't do anything to move the needle in terms of comparison to what's currently happening at PSU. I just proved this with documented facts.

    This is just getting ridiculous

    in College Wrestling

    Posted

    5 minutes ago, scourge165 said: 
    In June 1989, Ryan turned his back on a scholarship and drove from New York to Iowa. He entered the wrestling room as a hopeful walk-on for the Hawkeyes.
"Who are you?" Gable asked.
"I'm Tom. I go to Syracuse, but I'm going to transfer here," Ryan replied.
"Well," said Gable, "you're not going to get any better sitting there."
Gable told Ryan to work out with twin brothers Troy and Terry Steiner, both national champs.

    https://www.dispatch.com/story/sports/college/2015/12/17/ohio-state-wrestling-coach-tom/23771442007/

    You can highly doubt it, but it's a pretty well known story for an Iowa fan to have never heard. 

     

    The rest of this..."they weren't even 4Xers." So what?
    They were two sport starts...right. Instead of the famous specialization that went on in the 1980s?

     

    It kinda is though...with all due deference to Wrestling USA Magazine, I stand behind all my points and I think you're just guessing at some of yours. 

    TJ Williams...committed when Gable was the coach. TJ Williams committed to Gable because he saw the success they had and he wanted to have that same type of success. That he's a JUCO is a ridiculous response to me. So what?

     

    Take Messenbrink and Kerkvliet off your lists if you're going to dismiss someone because they didn't committ to the school immediately out of College.

     

    Guessing?! Keep reading, bud.

    This is just getting ridiculous

    in College Wrestling

    Posted

    2 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

    Listen. You're obviously on your menstrual cycle. We can go on forever and argue or I can be the man in this situation and realize we'll never see eye to eye and exit the conversation.  

    This man gets hit with the facts and instead of being an adult and admitting he was wrong, he makes a menstrual cycle joke. You're an assclown lol.

    "I HaVe NoThInG aGaInSt IoWa AnD tHeIr PrOgRaM"

    This is just getting ridiculous

    in College Wrestling

    Posted

    5 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

    Taco had a Freudian slip but he edited

    Hypothetically, let's say Iowa was giving out ten extra scholarships per year from 1976-1990, wouldn't that make their recruiting look even worse? 11 top HS recruits in 15 years while also having extra scholarship money to dish out doesn't exactly jibe with your theory.

    You know, you can just admit that you are wrong and we can all move on, right?

    This is just getting ridiculous

    in College Wrestling

    Posted

    Just now, MPhillips said:

     

    Aren't you two saying the same thing here?:classic_huh:

    No, my comment had a typo that I already edited 30 seconds after I posted it lol:

    I think it's pretty obvious those extra scholarships weren't being used to stockpile the nation's best HS recruits.

    This is just getting ridiculous

    in College Wrestling

    Posted · Edited by Jamie_Taco

    39 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

    No, because Gable did stockpile the nation's top high school recruits.  I'll make my points in hoping we'll come to a general agreement but I highly doubt it.

    1)  In terms of Royce Alger not being a top ranked recruit it's a failure of the wrestling media at that time.  It's unfair to cast total blame on wrestling media  during that era due to them not having the resources that Flo, @Husker_Duetc benefit from in this modern era.  By any metric, a 3x Iowa state champ and JR national title winner is a top 10 recruit.  

    2) You're conveniently omitting or do not know that for years Gable gave extra scholarships.  Above the allotted amount allowed by the NCAA's which led to him eventually being sanctioned.  To be fair, other Big 10 schools were also doing it but Iowa wrestling egregiously went over the allowed allotment which was proven in a report I will provide for you.  Yes, Gable was stockpiling wrestlers. https://web3.ncaa.org/lsdbi/search/miCaseView/report?id=101820  I dont blame Gable for doing this but he was gaming the system.  AND he stockpiled wrestlers

     

    LOL dude. Even with the facts presented, you just can't admit you're wrong.

    So Gable, without Flo and the internet, was somehow able to get all over the country and find the top guys that the media and other programs just didn't know about or didn't rank correctly? Is that really the argument you're trying to make here?

    Also, egregiously?! You realize it came out to like 1.25 extra scholarships per year from 1987-1990, right?

    “The powerhouse Iowa wrestling program reportedly was five scholarships over the limit during the period.”

    And since Gable only signed 11 top-ranked kids in those 15 years in question, I think it's pretty obvious those extra scholarships weren't being used to stockpile the nation's best HS recruits.

    Again, one person here is providing the facts. The other is providing their own personal opinions and hindsight.

    This is just getting ridiculous

    in College Wrestling

    Posted

    Also, I have to correct something from earlier. I said there were seven 4x Iowa champs prior to Royce's HS days, but I was mistaken about his graduating year. There would have only been five 4xers prior to 1983 (Bob Steenlage, Jeff Kerber, Scott Morningstar, Joe Gibbons, Greg Randall).

    • Fire 1

    This is just getting ridiculous

    in College Wrestling

    Posted · Edited by Jamie_Taco

    6 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

    It's your homework when you're the one providing the info.  Anyways thanks for the links

    You're welcome. Are you now ready to admit that Gable and Iowa didn't stockpile the nation's top high school talent? Who's the one living with "fever pitch delusions" again?

    This is just getting ridiculous

    in College Wrestling

    Posted

    You're right, the link isn't working now for some reason. Wrestling USA mag used Asics Boys teams (1986-today); prior to that, you will need to check Win's Dream Team which will go back to the 60s. This is the last piece of homework I am doing for you guys.

    https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Wrestling/Features/2010/July/15/1986-ASICS-BOYS-TEAM

    https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Wrestling/Features/2010/July/15/1987-ASICS-BOYS-TEAM

    https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Wrestling/Features/2010/July/15/1988-ASICS-BOYS-TEAM

    https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Wrestling/Features/2010/July/15/1989-ASICS-BOYS-TEAM

    https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Wrestling/Features/2010/July/15/1990-ASICS-BOYS-TEAM

    https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Wrestling/Features/2010/July/15/1991-ASICS-BOYS-TEAM

    https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Wrestling/Features/2010/July/15/1992-ASICS-BOYS-TEAM

    https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Wrestling/Features/2010/July/15/1993-ASICS-BOYS-TEAM

    https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Wrestling/Features/2010/July/15/1994-ASICS-BOYS-TEAM

    https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Wrestling/Features/2010/July/15/1995-ASICS-BOYS-TEAM

    https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Wrestling/Features/2010/July/15/1996-ASICS-BOYS-TEAM

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