Jamie_Taco

1 hour ago, Perry said:

Times placing 6th at ncaas lee: 1 cox: zero.

Not playing hypotheticals on the "covid year". Excuses are for wusses and Lee lost because Ramos was the better wrestler (his words)

So first it was competition, now it's because J'den's 5th place is better than Spencer's 6th place. Still waiting for you to answer my "J'den's best college wins" answer..

4 hours ago, Perry said:

Quality of competition matters. Jden was an Olympic and world medalist before he graduated college without taking a redshirt season. He had wins over the likes of David Taylor and Kyle dake in this same time. Who is Lee's best win? Thomasello or suriano? Both good but nowhere near the levels of dake or Taylor and thomasello traded matches with Lee. Lee is great, but not an all timer. Even his placement record is below cox and the others mentioned. Bonusing his way through the Iowa jv open in 4 minutes mostly means nothing. 

You're honestly bringing up freestyle accolades when talking about the best college wrestlers of all time? Brilliant lol.

Also, when did J'den beat DT or Dake in college? I must have missed that. Since the quality of competition matters, as you said, who were J'den's best wins in college? True freshman Kyle Snyder, who he hasn't beaten since? In his three final appearances, Cox beat Nick Heflin, Morgan McIntosh, and Brett Pfarr. Not exactly murderers' row when you're trying to use his competition level as your reasoning.

Here's another thing I forgot to mention:

Hodge Trophies - Spencer 2, J'den 0

James E. Sullivan Award - Spencer 1, J'den 0

Spencer also did all of this with a pair of bum knees. If COVID held off two more weeks, Spencer is a 4xer and this isn't even a discussion but none of you want to admit that. 

10 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

@Jamie_Taco & @scourge165 any chance we can put this debate on pause for a moment and move on to weather predictions?  Now vs 1980s.  Is weather forecasting better today?  Debate!

I'm honestly not sure. We better defer to Captain Hindsight, @scourge165.

7 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

Chittum ain't going 149 and AJ ain't going 197. 

Bet?

And your guys' obsession with Spencer Lee continues lol.

Of the four wrestlers mentioned ahead of Spencer in this thread, only one would have a legit argument on having a better college career than Spencer and that's Bo.

Forty percent of SL's wins ended in the first period, with 11 falls in under a minute. That means 40 of his 98 wins ended in less than 3 minutes and 11% of them ended in less than 60 seconds.

To even fathom the idea that he's below J'Den, Zain, and Nolf in terms of a college career is truly laughable. Spencer dominated his opponents and got off the mat faster than anyone I can remember, but I get it, you guys don't like Iowa, so carry on lol.

3 hours ago, scourge165 said:

No problem. You didn't seem to understand as you said it was all about the "bag man."

Tom Ryan showing up on campus and as you say, top 10 recruit Brinzer and they didn't even recruit him. How'd he end up there?

Seems like they're showing up on a Silver Platter...as the expression goes. In other words, they were delivered to him without him even recruiting them. 

 

Mine is based on how inherently flawed the rankings you have only cut and pasted from the 1980s before Flo Nationals, Who's #1, Recruiting showcases, YOUTUBE, the INTERNET...vs modern rankings are.

Not hindsight.

Just the exclusion of Alger on that list makes it laughable and makes me dubious of all of your rankings. 

LOL I am sure you were letting everyone know how bad the rankings were back in 1983. Scourge165, Harold, and Gable knew about Royce Alger's talent from day 1! Scourge165 knew the rankings were flawed and was arguing with everyone in '82 about Royce and how he should be a top-rated recruit.

You also make it seem like Alger won his Junior National Title prior to committing to Iowa. You do realize that was the summer before his freshman year of college, right? The rankings had already been released and Royce had already committed to Iowa before winning his Junior National Title. Again, how easy is it for you to call out "flawed" rankings 30+ years later? That's the definition of hindsight, you dope .

Also, wouldn't your argument mean that Gable and Iowa had to work harder to find the best talent, since you know, the rankings were flawed? No Flo Nationals, Who's #1, and so on like you say, so no just pulling up the interwebs to find and recruit the best talent. You actually had to have contacts, travel, and scout prospects yourself because as you said, you couldn't rely on the rankings. I am starting to question if you even remember the original argument here.

Once again, you can just admit you're wrong and we can all move on. Gable didn't build his program with the nation's top recruits. That's a proven fact and I am sorry you don't want to accept that fact, for whatever reason lol.

5 minutes ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

Exactly, the potential new rules will be trouble for Nagao. I have faith in Teskee and think he cashes in on the year he's banked in the Hawkeye room and finally settles into the weight. He's a lot better on his feet than we've seen, and better than Nagao from neutral. Just my 2 cents.

If Nagao ends up in Iowa City and gets beat out by Teske, it's a good problem to have. I would bet good money that's not what happens though. Nagao has a higher ceiling and two more years of eligibility compared to Brody. It's a no-brainer to take him in if he wants to be a Hawkeye.

The 2024 and 2025 lineup could look something like..

125: Ayala

133: Nagao

141: Block / Rathjen / Transfer?

149: Chittum

157: Ferarri

165: Kennedy

174: Arnold

184: Ferarri

197: Ferarri

HWT: Keuter

PSU is dominating right now but that's a very salty lineup that would have a chance imo.

18 minutes ago, poorwrestler said:

Nagao will be greatly effected by the new rules, imo. He’s a great rider, not necessarily a turner. Relies on phenomenal neutral defense and scrambling a lot. He’s still a very good wrestler who anyone should want in their room though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Now if only there were someone in Iowa City who can teach him a solid turn and pinning combo to go with his riding. Real certainly picked it up quickly.

1 hour ago, RandolphTJones said:

I have no idea how much money Angelo Ferrari is looking at to receive in terms of his recruitment. I would be surprised if Iowa gives $100K+ to Nagao just to out bid Penn St. When he does officially transfer and where, I would have strong interest in how much he received by said school. 

Who knows maybe he is going somewhere he just has interest in and there isn't alot of NIL dough on the table. We will see. 

Of course they should compete with PSU but is throwing around big money (as reported) the smart way to do it when you have zero chance at beating them next year? 

Well, considering Iowa has money to throw around, yes, I think it makes sense. What else do you think they should use the money over a returning AA with three years of eligibility at a much needed weight? This basically negates the loss of Jesuroga, as Ayala and Nagao can man 125/133 for the next 3 years.

Also, I am not going to believe the Nagao thing until it's official. Pretty sure he still has a trip left, no?

41 minutes ago, RandolphTJones said:

My man, I am the last person to believe Minnow but I share your sentiments.

I just can't wrap my head around Iowa throwing large money to a guy when they may not even finish in the top 3. ( If this is all true) and they have a solid wrestler in Teske.

If Nagao goes to Iowa cool, I just don't know why Iowa would throw $$$ his way. Maybe they really need that top 4 finish and it's worth the investment. 

Also, are you saying Iowa should just not even try to compete with PSU? Cause it certainly reads that way.

Why is Iowa even recruiting Angelo Ferarri? Why waste the money on the #1 overall recruit? Hell, why are they even training right now? It all seems like a total waste to only get 2nd place, right?

35 minutes ago, RandolphTJones said:

My man, I am the last person to believe Minnow but I share your sentiments.

I just can't wrap my head around Iowa throwing large money to a guy when they may not even finish in the top 3. ( If this is all true) and they have a solid wrestler in Teske.

If Nagao goes to Iowa cool, I just don't know why Iowa would throw $$$ his way. Maybe they really need that top 4 finish and it's worth the investment. 

I look at Nagao as basically a HS recruit, as he still has three years of eligibility remaining, similar to when Desanto transferred. If they brought in Bernie for one year, I'd agree with you, but Nagao is definitely someone you want to spend money on if you can't get him. Just like Mesenbrink.

1 hour ago, RandolphTJones said:

Lots of money to use to try and buy a 2nd place finish. That's still not guaranteed. Gotta feel a bit for Teske. 

Also, don't believe the BS you read from that Mineo loser. The numbers he is throwing out are utter bullshit in an attempt to make Iowa wrestling look desperate. Just like when he said Kemerer was medically retiring from wrestling in 2021 and how Spencer tore his ACL and wasn't going to wrestling this year, only to see him wrestle a few hours later.

It's glaringly obvious that Pat is a troll and likes to work up the Iowa fan base. That doesn't mean he's not full of shit 90% of the time, so everyone should consider the source.

1 hour ago, RandolphTJones said:

Lots of money to use to try and buy a 2nd place finish. That's still not guaranteed. Gotta feel a bit for Teske. 

Why? Iowa is Teske's third school. If anyone should understand, it's Brody.

Also, thanks for explaining what a silver platter means LOL. Again, where are you getting these statements? I never said PSU got anything handed to them on a silver platter, so where is that coming from? I said Iowa never recruited like PSU is currently recruiting and then provided the documented facts to back that up. You don't like the recruiting rankings from back in the day, and that's fine, but it doesn't make them any less real lol.

Again, it's my facts (the rankings) vs your opinions. Pretty easy to poo on rankings after you know how it all panned out .

3 hours ago, scourge165 said:

I didn't see you say it anywhere...which is why I didn't reply to it. The term "silver platter," means it's just handed to them. Not that they're just paying guys to come there.

 

I'm not a PSU fan dude(I've ALSO said I don't think this is good for the sport in general). I just find your logic fundamentally flawed. You're using ONE ranking reference from what may as well be the stone age as compared to now. I believe you're wrong and I think you realize that, particularly in relation to Alger, but just in general. "Top 10," back then. That's just a guess of guys at that weight. NOW it's guys who are Wrestling each other REGULARLY. A guy like Clayton Whiting would have been #1 coming in and beating an Iowa starter before his Sr year in HS. He was the...what, 20th ranked recruit? 

You had one FRACTION of the information available to create a "rankings" system. 

Again, I just don't believe you believe the rankings today and the rankings from pre-internet are even remotely comparable.

 

Now...if you want to talk about the classes that PSU has coming in...THAT is different and that is getting a little ridiculous. That's almost like OSU's '22 class but in back to back years. Especially if Hopke ends up there.

Holy shit. My "logic" is based on actual recruiting rankings. Yours is off your opinion 30+ years after the fact. Lol how TF is this so hard for you to grasp? 

30 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

Wehereas PSU, they're the bag guys in this story! They don't work or develop their Wrestlers, it's all just handed to them on a silver platter!

I also forgot to respond to this and couldn't just leave it lol. Again, where did I say anything about PSU not developing guys and saying it's all about the bag man? The fact is, combined with development, they are recruiting insanely well. Better than we've ever seen a program recruit at this level (and the senior level with NLWC). Just because the two programs and dynasties were built differently doesn't make one morally better than the other.

Honestly, you seem to be the one with the insecurities about how PSU has built its dynasty.

1 minute ago, scourge165 said:

You keep saying this while ignoring...Gable wasn't the only coach recruiting him, NOR was he the only coach in the driveway.

He WAS however the coach that convinced the kid from the family that had very little money to turn down the full ride for a 40%.

And sure, it helped he was from Iowa. It also helped that Gable had access to plane to fly out and recruit Wrestlers whenever he wanted.

Lots of things helped Iowa after Gable built their program up, but it seems as though you REALLY just need it to be this story of a bunch of rag tag Wrestlers who weren't any good until Dan Gable put his magic hands on him and made them GREAT...whereas PSU, they're the bag guys in this story! They don't work or develop their Wrestlers, it's all just handed to them on a silver platter!

 

The way these recruiting rankings were put together back then...if you can't see how inherently flawed they'd be just based on the tools at hand, then I can't help you(but I don't think you want to be helped). 

Iowa was great. They dominated the sport. They're STILL the #2 program...it just isn't close right now. 

Dude, I never said anything close to Gable just taking ragtag guys. Not at all. I posted the recruiting numbers for both coaches, which are what they are, even if you don't agree with them 30-40 years later. My first post in this thread showed that Gable had top recruits throughout his career. Not as many as you might think, but he obviously got top-rated kids to Iowa City.

I also said Gable was a master motivator and great at evaluating and developing talent. Again, see Chris Campbell. This idea from some that he was recruiting like PSU is recruiting is what I am arguing against.

And you are right that Iowa is #2 right now. They are #2 all-time behind Okie State and #2 currently behind PSU. Quite a ways behind in both, sadly (for me lol). However, this conversation really has nothing to do with that. Where was the PSU program ranked in the 80s and 90s?

6 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

It's not looking back. It's look AT THE TIME and seeing a 3X State Champ, JR National Champ who had two coaches in his driveway and thinking...the Asics All American team is not the ultimate authority on who the top ranked Wrestlers were and that JUUUUST maybe a time before the internet and the recruiting showcases and the other National Tournaments, one Wrestler not showing up on one list is less indicative of how good of a recruit he was than the coaches  who were AT HIS HOUSE trying to sign him the minute he was eligible to sign.

 

But...go back to your schooling!

Ah yes, so Gable was able to evaluate talent better than the rankings system and most coaches. Again, I already agreed with this, but we are talking about stockpiling the top HS recruits, which is based on a ranking system.

It also helped that Royce was born and raised in Iowa City.

Just now, scourge165 said:

Same here. If you want to argue that Royce Alger(of all the Wrestlers) wasn't a top recruit because it makes you feel like you REALLY earned it and PSU isn't...whatever.

Bottom line is Penn State is absolutely destroying the field.

You're arguing it but have not done a single thing to prove it besides sharing a story you read about 30 years after his recruitment. I provided the actual rankings from 1983. It doesn't matter if you think they are wrong or not. They are the rankings.

So I will ask one more time. Please show us ANY other ranking system from Royce's senior year that had him listed as a top recruit. Do it or just take the L.

Also, who TF is arguing that PSU isn't destroying the field? I think we all agree there lol.

@scourge165 is also going with the ol "the rankings were wrong" argument to prove his point. How convenient to look back and make that determination after the fact lol.

Again, show us literally anything from 1983 where Alger was listed as a top-rated HS recruit and I will admit I am wrong. You can't though lol.

3 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

I'm starting to see why the US has slipped so far in education...

Lol DERP

Just now, scourge165 said:

Ok...I ACTUALLY provided facts. Dan Gable didn't know who Tom Ryan was. Tom Ryan showed up at Iowa as a walk on to Wrestle for Gable and ended up in the National Finals.

And that you showed me a list of All-American's and Royce Alger wasn't on it simply only tells me that one list...is a comically bad one.

Again, verbal with UNI for a full scholarship.

Iowa shows up with 40% 15 minutes before signing day...before MIDNIGHT on signing day with the UNI coach in the driveway, and Alger flips to Iowa.

That should all you need to know.

But for some strange reason, you need it to have been tougher for Iowa? I don't know. I'm still waiting for those class rankings you promised. All you did was show the AA teams by weight and the first two I looked at had Iowa Wrestlers in there and absolutely ZERO class rankings. 

You were right about one story and one wrestler over a 21-year career . I thanked you for educating me but it does very little to prove anyone trying to say that Iowa stockpiled top recruits.

If you think the ASIC All-American lists are comically bad, I encourage you to link us to a different ranking system from 1983 that had Alger on it.

1 minute ago, scourge165 said:

Ok...so lets say Royce Alger wasn't a top recruit.

He had two D1 coaches at his house 15 minutes before Midnight and Dan Gable thought he was a big enough recruit to personally go there and try and convince him to flip from UNI to Iowa...and he did it.

He didn't even have to recruit Brinzer or Ryan(I didn't know he didn't recruit Brinzer, just taking your word on that one).

I mean, we have to say that because again, he wasn't a top-rated recruit according to the people who actually ranked HS recruits back then. This isn't up for debate. If you want to say that Gable could evaluate talent and ability better than most, sure, I agree with you there, but he wasn't just taking the top recruits at the time.

I didn't know that story about Ryan, so thank you for sharing. You can go add one more top wrestler to Gable's recruits. It still doesn't do anything to move the needle in terms of comparison to what's currently happening at PSU. I just proved this with documented facts.

5 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

In June 1989, Ryan turned his back on a scholarship and drove from New York to Iowa. He entered the wrestling room as a hopeful walk-on for the Hawkeyes.
"Who are you?" Gable asked.
"I'm Tom. I go to Syracuse, but I'm going to transfer here," Ryan replied.
"Well," said Gable, "you're not going to get any better sitting there."
Gable told Ryan to work out with twin brothers Troy and Terry Steiner, both national champs.

https://www.dispatch.com/story/sports/college/2015/12/17/ohio-state-wrestling-coach-tom/23771442007/

You can highly doubt it, but it's a pretty well known story for an Iowa fan to have never heard. 

 

The rest of this..."they weren't even 4Xers." So what?
They were two sport starts...right. Instead of the famous specialization that went on in the 1980s?

 

It kinda is though...with all due deference to Wrestling USA Magazine, I stand behind all my points and I think you're just guessing at some of yours. 

TJ Williams...committed when Gable was the coach. TJ Williams committed to Gable because he saw the success they had and he wanted to have that same type of success. That he's a JUCO is a ridiculous response to me. So what?

 

Take Messenbrink and Kerkvliet off your lists if you're going to dismiss someone because they didn't committ to the school immediately out of College.

 

Guessing?! Keep reading, bud.

1 minute ago, PortaJohn said:

And like a woman on her period you wont stop arguing.  Enjoy your Sunday

I am not arguing, I am schooling. You enjoy yours as well. Go Wild and Timberwolves