pmilk

BB...so what you are recommending is to....smart stall. Stalling is ok now, eh? I would add to work "smartly" towards the edge, in case: 1) something goes wrong...discreetly get out of bounds, and 2) if my back is to the edge, circle in and take a 1/2 shot to make him go out...keeps the refs very happy. Perhaps it's semantics, but with a minute left and 1pt lead, I'm shutting it down, I'm done wrestling. You are essentially doing the same thing except you call it "don't stop wrestling." I'll give you a B+ for the stall strategy. 3pt. TD was a mistake imo. puts more emphasis on TD's and diminishes mat wrestling...headed towards freestyle, but that's another discussion. thanks for the tip, perhaps I'll figure out how to use it someday. I'm not a new poster. been on here many years. I just post infrequently and only when something piques my interest. And you were criticizing the referees for not calling what you think they should be calling.

BB...ok, just so I better understand how you may think and wrestle ...I'm ahead of you 3-2, no stalling calls, :30 seconds left, or make it the 1:00 that you stated, and we're on our feet...what do you recommend I do, or how would you coach me, to ensure I win the match? ps..someone else was advocating for more rules...I just thought I could kill two birds with that one stone.

BB...I know it's easy for many of us to sit in the stands or in the coaching corner and "referee." I've competed and coached at virtually every level and I have reffed...I'll take coaching any day! Reffing is not an easy job for sure. A vast majority of the refs I've seen and interacted with over the course of my lifetime are fair, competent, and professional. Like every profession, there are dopes, biased refs, and incompetent turds, just like some coaches (and edge to the coaches)...but refereeing is a very tough job and it's easy to criticize from afar. They don't always get right... no one does, but they do the best they can, I think...and I believe the NCAA refs are some of the best in any sport. Anyway, more rules is not going to prevent using tactics that some people don't like and more rules just muddies the water and usually leads to more rules and then people lose interest in the sport. Smart athletes, in all sports, find ways to let the rules work in their favor. Call it manipulation, call it clever, call it stalling...

Brucey? Ha...yes, I do watch current college wrestling. Actually...been watching wrestling since I've been old enough to see. I apologize for not being able to adequately explain the strategy of protecting a lead and "smart stalling." Stalling has always been and always will be a "standard and part of the game." I do have a little experience wrestling at the college level against exceptional competition and "stalling" within the confines of the rules as written was a great weapon. First of all, my observation is that referee's usually call stalling when it's obvious and not cloaked well. When it is concealed well, they have no choice. They can't call it. Second of all, the lead wrestler has earned that right to stall at the end of a match particularly when a stall call will not affect the outcome of the match and especially if he has no prior stall calls. Handing out a courtesy stall at the end is...other than appeasing folks like you...useless anyway. That you, or others, don't approve...well, I can't help you on that. As mentioned earlier, as a wrestler, if you feel your opponent is stalling, you have a responsibility to expose it and get the call. Actually, as a strategy, I was taught to try to get my opponent called for stalling early in the match so that call is hanging over his head for the rest of the match. Usually, not always, a very good coach teaches and drills those techniques. Sometimes a wrestler can figure it out on his own too, but I was taught stalling and "expose" stalling techniques and used it very well, might I add.

Folks are upset that the leading score can "stall." One of your jobs as an opponent who is behind is to expose the stalling. As long as the leader is fulfilling the requirements for "not stalling," i.e. not backing up, avoiding contact, etc., then it isn't considered stalling. Know the rules and how to work them to your advantage regardless whether you are leading or losing. Look at the rules books prior to 1985 and compare them to now....way more pages, way more rules, and the sport hasn't gained any more popularity and may even be losing some. Making more rules is not the answer. Coaching is the answer. It's not the style. It's the rules and the coaching. Why is PSU so good? Lots of schools get good kids. Being well coached in virtually every aspect of the sport is one of several factors that allows PSU to excel.

It’s obvious that the elimination of RT at the high school level has had a negative impact on mat wrestling at the collegiate level. How in the world can college coaches build on the skills and strategies when there is little foundation from which to build? Why did they eliminate it? I have asked folks. No one can really tell me, but here’s my guess; Too many coaches at that level don’t know or understand the intricate mechanics of top and bottom mat wrestling. We are reluctant to admit that it’s too hard and frustrating to teach and learn for a large majority of hs coaches. It’s easier to denigrate it, lower the standards, and do away with it, than to put in the time and effort to learn it and be successful. So, we change the rules and we dumb it down so it gives more folks a chance and makes "coaching" easier. Bottom wrestling has suffered as a result. The three-point TD doesn’t create more wrestling. It now takes less wrestling to score more points. Point inflation pacifies the freestyle clique. It doesn’t make the sport any more interesting or give it mass appeal, which it will never achieve anyway. The dog whistle complaint is that mat wrestling and ankle control is boring and if you do catch an ankle or drop down to a single to maintain control, it’s stalling and, therefore, a detriment to the sport. The real detriment to the sport is not coaching an athlete on all the various techniques that he has available in any given situation, both offensively and defensively. As far as stalling goes...Matches are only 7 min and we can now have an entire match where both wrestlers start neutral. There's a lot of time spent jockeying around, measuring, feeling things out, etc. To expect two wrestlers to go balls out for 7 min is not reasonable. In virtually every sport, keeping and protecting a lead, aka-stalling, is part of the strategy. There's plenty of it in freestyle. What's the entire purpose of being in the down position in free? TO STALL. Flatten out like a starfish/post-it note and wait a 5-7 seconds. The irony is, that strategy is encouraged not criticized. Smart wrestlers, get ahead, stay ahead, protect their handywork and smart stall...plain and simple, like it or not.

Dark E...First, my dad never told anyone what weight they had to wrestle. The wts were quite different back then. 98, 107, 115, 123, 132, 138, 145, 155, 165, 175, 185, Hvy. They varied slightly every few years. Everyone decided what weight they wanted to wrestle and if they couldn't make the team at, say, 123...they could cut to 115 or bump up to 132. Second, our pre-season conditioning was a key factor in knocking off fat without really decreasing food intake. My dad encouraged all of us was to stop the soda pop (replace that with water or milk), candy/chips/junk food, and to stick with healthier and lower calorie "junk food," like raw vegetables and lots of fruit, salads, cottage cheese, poached eggs/toast/tea, etc. He was really way ahead of his peers in not just technique and how to run an effective practice, but how to manage weight loss with virtually no negative effect in strength, stamina, and health. My personal belief was that I wanted to cut weight to be bigger than my opponents without sacrificing any of the other performance factors..If I could drop 10-15 lbs, or whatever, I would x-pounds faster, stronger, and larger than my opponents. I would have a distinct advantage. Yeah, being honest, I fell off the wagon early on and did the dumb stuff, but it was rare...I don't like cutting corners. Do things right all the time. Like I said, pretty much everyone has some fat they can live without, but discipline must support the education. I have yet to meet a former wrestler that cut wt. who doesn't look like they fell on an air pump since their competition days....I also know of none who ended up anorexic.

This is somewhat long a perhaps strays a little from the original question, however….. It’s a foregone conclusion that cutting weight will always be an issue in the sport of wrestling. Changing the weight classes won’t stop athletes from losing a few pounds to make a weight several pounds below their natural weight. You may hear people say that weight cutting is a “black eye” on wrestling. Athletes in other sports cut weight too. Our society is loaded with overweight individuals and billions are spent on methods of losing weight. Virtually everyone can afford to lose a few pounds. In wrestling, it’s not the losing of weight that gives the sport a “black eye,” it’s the way people do it. The main problem coaches and athletes suffer from with regards to weight loss is lack education and discipline. With the exception of my tenth grade year, I have cut weight every year that I competed. The problem I saw in my peers was their ignorance on how to cut weight and their inability to discipline themselves to say within 5 pounds between competitions. That’s not to say I didn’t use plastics, or saunas (neither or which were illegal back then), or even binge-purge on occasion, but those techniques were few and far between, and I certainly don’t recommend them. The most valuable asset I had was the education about how to lose weight correctly, how to eat right, and using discipline to support that education. The three wrestling deaths in 1997 were a direct result of using drastic weight cutting measures in very short period of time, i.e., dehydration, saunas, plastic sweat suits, laxatives, diuretics. My high school coach was my dad and he was very educated on how to lose weight properly. He had a weight chart on his office wall and he monitored our progress. We had to record our pre and post practice weight under his watchful eye. He developed in his wrestlers the habit of starting to lose weight 45-60 days before the first weigh-in. Most wrestlers do several thing wrong when cutting weight. Many don’t start any serious cutting until the last couple of days before a competition. They dehydrate or starve themselves instead of practicing the discipline of losing permanent weight (body fat). Many bounce up 8, 10, and even 15 pounds after weigh-ins, and then try to lose the weight using the drastic measures and they don’t eat healthy foods or stay hydrated. Pre-season conditioning that included running for 45 minutes was actually my dad’s way of helping us burn off body fat. He explained that besides developing mental toughness, stamina, and discipline, long term endurance training was something we had to do if we wanted to lose weight correctly. He always wanted us 1-2 pounds under weight the day before weigh-ins. We learned exactly how much we would “drift” overnight. We had ample opportunities to weigh ourselves several times during the day, without interfering with classes, we knew exactly how much each article of clothing weighed, and how much weight we were drifting during the day. He would correctly predict that we could eat 2-3 pounds of food and water the night before and still be on or under weight for weigh-ins the next day. He would prescribe an evening meal of steak, baked potato, another vegetable, salad and a nice glass of milk or water. After weigh-ins he always fed the team a vegetable soup concoction that became known to opposing teams as “Super juice.” He wanted us to have something in our stomach that broke down quickly and was easily digested. He told us our stomachs have three layers of muscles that are used to digest food. Those muscles need oxygen to do their job and if there is food in your stomach when you go out to compete, there will be an O2 shortage for your brain and muscles. In those days, wrestlers had five hours to make weight. For example, if match time was 7:30, weigh-ins started at 2:30 and you had until 7:29 to make weight. I enjoyed watching many of my less disciplined opponents having to use some of that five hours running, exercising, or drilling to knock off those last few ounces or pounds. Energy that could have been used for the match was being used to lose weight. A rather unique strategy, I presumed. The day after a tournament or match, even if it was a Sunday, the team met at school to check our weight and we could not be more that 5 pounds over. Anyone who was over, stayed and worked out until his weight was ok. Because of history and tradition, it was rare that anyone was more than five over. The theory was simple. Once you make flat weight and stay within 5 pounds between weigh-ins, your body adjusts to living that way and when you come to practice, you can focus on technique, strategy and conditioning, and you aren’t worried about how much you have to lose or what you can’t eat or drink that night. As long as you followed the regimen, you could eat fairly normally. Learning this was even more valuable when we had to make weight multiple days in a row. Obviously, this requires a lot of mental toughness and discipline. Some of you may find fault with some of these concepts, and lots of things have changed over the years. One thing that hasn’t changed is the power of education and importance of supporting it with discipline. No, it wasn’t fun running for 45 minutes 6 days a week for a couple months and change my eating habits to make weight in December, but it allowed me to burn off permanent weight (fat) and further develop my endurance, stamina, and discipline. It also gave me a lot of time to contemplate how someone was going to pay for all these sacrifices. Condensed, my weight loss program started 45-60 days before the first weigh-in and it was facilitated with long-term endurance training to burn off fat. Once flat weight is made, stay within 5 pounds or less between weigh-ins. It will be difficult for several weeks but your body will adjust and it will be the new “normal.” Once we made flat weight, the rules allowed a 1 pound allowance in January, another pound in February, and another pound in March. They called it a "growth allowance." Then you got a pound for the second day of a tournament. So, you make 126 in Dec, 127 in Jan, 128 in Feb, 129 in March, and if you make it to the second day of a tournament, your get to make 130. State tournament rules also offered the opportunity to either weigh-in the night before or the morning of, each day of the tourney. That’s a great rule at any level. Wrestling season is long and grueling. It’s not losing weight that hurts performance and health as much as it is how you lose weight. Education and discipline are the keys.

A guy dropping to one knee is stalling or unmanageable? Come on, really? We end up on our knees all the time in wrestling. Weren't you all taught techniques from the feet and knees that allowed you to score by going over, under, or around your opponent? Wrestling an opponent who drops to his knee isn't much different than an opp on his feet...he's just shorter. If you have been trained appropriately, wrestling from the knees is an excellent scoring opportunity. With slight modifications, work into your tie-ups just like you would from on your feet: Snapdowns, sidesnaps, shrugs/shucks, underhook headwhips, short arm drags, elbow throws, knee trips, etc., are all options..if you know how to set them up and execute...if you don't, then I guess your next best recourse is to claim stalling or something like that. Kinda like when the top man catches an ankle...claim he's stalling if you don't know how to 1)prevent or 2)employ and effective counter and then create a rule that eliminates the down man's responsibility to effectively free himself. Part of any wrestler's game plan should incorporate tactics that make it look like your opponent is stalling. That can be done from feet or on top...harder to do on bottom tho.

https://vault.si.com/vault/1975/02/24/driving-up-with-a-compact-carr I'm sure very few of you ever had the pleasure of watching Jimmy Carr (Erie, Pa. and Univ of Ky). I have a long and interesting history with the Carr family dating back to 1975. Great people, great competitors. I believe that if Jimmy hadn't started training year round at such an early age, he would have been the next Gable or Sanderson. Just an incredible talent. Balance, technique, speed, strength, smarts...just an incredible athlete. I know from spending time reading comments on various websites, that no one from any era could have been good enough to compete with wrestlers today...I would vigorously dispute that precept because of folks like Jimmy (and others of course).

Milkovich placed 1, 1, 2, 2, and the last year was 1976. Thanks

Obviously, TF's and MD's were not a part of rules set prior to '85. Where it took 3 TD's to = 6pts, it now only takes 2 TD's... There are negative trends in Falls, Major Decisions, and Tech Falls (Figure 1) Falls have the largest decrease followed by Major decisions and Tech Falls (Figures 2 and 3) Overtime matches show a steady upward trend (Figures 1 and 3) In terms of number of matches, on the average Major Decisions are the highest followed by Falls and Tech Falls (Figures 4 and 5). In the last few years there has been an approximately equal number of Falls and Overtime matches (Figures 2 and 3) NCAA D1 Champinship Statistics Trends 2024.docx

Back in the 70's they had a rule that if you took two steps backwards, it was an automatic warning. It was a great rule until it just became pushing with no real attempt to attack. Stall calls in the first 10 seconds of a match...7:50 left to avoid getting called again. Consequently, it didn't last too long. So, if someone "steps out" of bounds, he gets penalized? I have watched enough wrestling in my lifetime where I truly cannot determine who went out of bounds first. So, that situation will be left to the ref to determine the guilty party or the silly brick gets thrown and we spend another 3-4 minutes watching video in slow motion several times to determine who went OB. Flow, momentum, stamina, among other things are now affected. Part of one's job is to expose an opponent who is avoiding "wrestling." To do that requires skill and tactical knowledge. The rules for stalling are already in place. Understanding the "stalling" rules either exposes the staller or disguises the staller. Smart wrestlers know how to do both. I really do not understand why being shrewd and clever to work the rules to your favor is so repulsive. What many of you are proposing is just moving more to freestyle. Why?

As I have stated before; wrestling is about control. you score because you control the tie-ups, top position, bottom position, the setups, the timing of the move, the pace, the defense, and to an extent...the clock time, among other things. I will always disagree that if the bottom man cannot be turned, then he should get a "free up," ala freestyle. Folkstyle requires one to be competent in all three disciplines: neutral, top, bottom. There is only 7min to wrestle...how much of it is mat wrestling? So, expecting everyone to turn an opponent like an "over easy" egg is just not realistic. And just because you cannot turn him does not mean you are stalling. Besides, not your fault he sucks on bottom. Whether one has legs in, a claw, a spiral, tight waist/chop, etc., the impact is all the same and similar to what KL stated.. 1. The bottom man gets tired from carrying his weight and the top man's 2. The bottom man isn't scoring any points and the clock is running down 3. The bottom man gets frustrated and may walk into a setup for back points or a pin 4. In college, accumulation of riding time over one minute is worth a point and that can be a huge difference in the outcome of a match. 5. Fatigue from not being able to get out, transfers to the feet. His reactions are slower, his anticipation is off, and if the match is close, he'll take some unnecessary shots and give up even more points. The implications are obvious. 6. For the rider, this is a great way to rest and kill time. All you have to do is look busy and keep the ref happy. The key here is LOOK BUSY...when you stop looking busy, you get called for stalling. That's what stalling on top is, or any position for that matter. I'm on top with 30 left and a stall call. I'm catching an ankle on the whistle for the obligatory 4 count, change off to tight waist/chop/knee up the butt...let him come up a little change to claw or a spiral, he posts and I bump his elbows with my knee to flatten him out, catch his wrists and drive him over them....30 secs killed...am I stalling? Yep, I am...Can they call me? nope! I was BUSY working things. Turning him never enters my mind. Same situation in neutral; up by 1 with 30secs left and a stall warning...Let's say I hit a quick single and can't finish..15-20 sec have passed..stalemate...we start again, I shoot again and get stuck on a single..time runs out. Am I stalling? If it's me, personally, my answer is YEP! I'm stalling like a big turd, but they can't call me. My whole intent was to shoot and put myself in a position so I don't get countered and scored on...make it look like I'm trying to score, but I'm just killing the clock and waiting to get my hand raised. Works like a charm.

First, how many years do you think they have been trying to address “stalling?” Next, why can’t he get out? I was taught how to prevent legs, get out of legs, and neutralize legs, so why can’t he? I was taught how to prevent a spiral and get out of a spiral, so why can’t he? I was taught how to prevent my ankles being caught and if they did, I was taught how to counter and get out of ankle rides, so why can’t he? I was taught how to prevent leg laces and I learned how to get out of them, so what’s preventing him from doing the same? And not just get out…but score points. In your scenario, how do you “stall your way to a ride out” without getting called for stalling? If you read the details of my posts on this subject you should discover that I don't encourage “doing nothing” on top. There are change offs and lots of movement while using leverages, torques, imbalances, and wt to keep him occupied, make him tired, frustrate him, run the clock, acquire a pt for RT, and he’s not scoring. And you’re keeping the ref happy. That’s not stalling. That’s just being smart about using the rules to one’s advantage. From 8th grade thru college, I have never, ever been warned for stalling on top or bottom. Wrestling is a thinking man’s game. Furthermore, if I knew someone could gain a point for every 30 seconds of RT, I’m doing two things: 1) learn how to get out effectively/efficiently and, 2) Learn how to control the top position. To me, this should equate to more active mat wrestling and more attempts for TD’s to put one in position to acquire the RT points and then to, consequently, get off bottom to limit RT points. Right now top man can “grasp” an ankle for 5 seconds. The bottom man does not have to react or wrestle any further because the rule will help him free his ankle. Hypothetical: Let’s pretend the rule was 15 or even 30 seconds on an ankle for each grasp. Do you really think the guy on bottom would still be compelled to do absolutely nothing for 15/30 seconds waiting for the time limit to kick in for him to let go while RT accumulates? I don’t. For some reason, you and others, are equating control to stalling and doing absolutely nothing at all. “Looking busy” is an art…people do it in jobs all the time. The one’s that get fired didn’t learn those techniques. Same in wrestling…do it well and no one bothers you…do a lousy job and you get dinged. I keep reading that the rules state you “must be working for a fall.” Tilts are not working for a fall…tilts are working for a tilt, so technically, to me, that could be construed as stalling…who gets pinned with a tilt? I believe my hypo brings mat wrestling back into demonstrating a comprehensive array of skill sets. Freestyle is basically TD’s and that’s seems where we are headed.