pmilk

Dark E...First, my dad never told anyone what weight they had to wrestle. The wts were quite different back then. 98, 107, 115, 123, 132, 138, 145, 155, 165, 175, 185, Hvy. They varied slightly every few years. Everyone decided what weight they wanted to wrestle and if they couldn't make the team at, say, 123...they could cut to 115 or bump up to 132. Second, our pre-season conditioning was a key factor in knocking off fat without really decreasing food intake. My dad encouraged all of us was to stop the soda pop (replace that with water or milk), candy/chips/junk food, and to stick with healthier and lower calorie "junk food," like raw vegetables and lots of fruit, salads, cottage cheese, poached eggs/toast/tea, etc. He was really way ahead of his peers in not just technique and how to run an effective practice, but how to manage weight loss with virtually no negative effect in strength, stamina, and health. My personal belief was that I wanted to cut weight to be bigger than my opponents without sacrificing any of the other performance factors..If I could drop 10-15 lbs, or whatever, I would x-pounds faster, stronger, and larger than my opponents. I would have a distinct advantage. Yeah, being honest, I fell off the wagon early on and did the dumb stuff, but it was rare...I don't like cutting corners. Do things right all the time. Like I said, pretty much everyone has some fat they can live without, but discipline must support the education. I have yet to meet a former wrestler that cut wt. who doesn't look like they fell on an air pump since their competition days....I also know of none who ended up anorexic.

This is somewhat long a perhaps strays a little from the original question, however….. It’s a foregone conclusion that cutting weight will always be an issue in the sport of wrestling. Changing the weight classes won’t stop athletes from losing a few pounds to make a weight several pounds below their natural weight. You may hear people say that weight cutting is a “black eye” on wrestling. Athletes in other sports cut weight too. Our society is loaded with overweight individuals and billions are spent on methods of losing weight. Virtually everyone can afford to lose a few pounds. In wrestling, it’s not the losing of weight that gives the sport a “black eye,” it’s the way people do it. The main problem coaches and athletes suffer from with regards to weight loss is lack education and discipline. With the exception of my tenth grade year, I have cut weight every year that I competed. The problem I saw in my peers was their ignorance on how to cut weight and their inability to discipline themselves to say within 5 pounds between competitions. That’s not to say I didn’t use plastics, or saunas (neither or which were illegal back then), or even binge-purge on occasion, but those techniques were few and far between, and I certainly don’t recommend them. The most valuable asset I had was the education about how to lose weight correctly, how to eat right, and using discipline to support that education. The three wrestling deaths in 1997 were a direct result of using drastic weight cutting measures in very short period of time, i.e., dehydration, saunas, plastic sweat suits, laxatives, diuretics. My high school coach was my dad and he was very educated on how to lose weight properly. He had a weight chart on his office wall and he monitored our progress. We had to record our pre and post practice weight under his watchful eye. He developed in his wrestlers the habit of starting to lose weight 45-60 days before the first weigh-in. Most wrestlers do several thing wrong when cutting weight. Many don’t start any serious cutting until the last couple of days before a competition. They dehydrate or starve themselves instead of practicing the discipline of losing permanent weight (body fat). Many bounce up 8, 10, and even 15 pounds after weigh-ins, and then try to lose the weight using the drastic measures and they don’t eat healthy foods or stay hydrated. Pre-season conditioning that included running for 45 minutes was actually my dad’s way of helping us burn off body fat. He explained that besides developing mental toughness, stamina, and discipline, long term endurance training was something we had to do if we wanted to lose weight correctly. He always wanted us 1-2 pounds under weight the day before weigh-ins. We learned exactly how much we would “drift” overnight. We had ample opportunities to weigh ourselves several times during the day, without interfering with classes, we knew exactly how much each article of clothing weighed, and how much weight we were drifting during the day. He would correctly predict that we could eat 2-3 pounds of food and water the night before and still be on or under weight for weigh-ins the next day. He would prescribe an evening meal of steak, baked potato, another vegetable, salad and a nice glass of milk or water. After weigh-ins he always fed the team a vegetable soup concoction that became known to opposing teams as “Super juice.” He wanted us to have something in our stomach that broke down quickly and was easily digested. He told us our stomachs have three layers of muscles that are used to digest food. Those muscles need oxygen to do their job and if there is food in your stomach when you go out to compete, there will be an O2 shortage for your brain and muscles. In those days, wrestlers had five hours to make weight. For example, if match time was 7:30, weigh-ins started at 2:30 and you had until 7:29 to make weight. I enjoyed watching many of my less disciplined opponents having to use some of that five hours running, exercising, or drilling to knock off those last few ounces or pounds. Energy that could have been used for the match was being used to lose weight. A rather unique strategy, I presumed. The day after a tournament or match, even if it was a Sunday, the team met at school to check our weight and we could not be more that 5 pounds over. Anyone who was over, stayed and worked out until his weight was ok. Because of history and tradition, it was rare that anyone was more than five over. The theory was simple. Once you make flat weight and stay within 5 pounds between weigh-ins, your body adjusts to living that way and when you come to practice, you can focus on technique, strategy and conditioning, and you aren’t worried about how much you have to lose or what you can’t eat or drink that night. As long as you followed the regimen, you could eat fairly normally. Learning this was even more valuable when we had to make weight multiple days in a row. Obviously, this requires a lot of mental toughness and discipline. Some of you may find fault with some of these concepts, and lots of things have changed over the years. One thing that hasn’t changed is the power of education and importance of supporting it with discipline. No, it wasn’t fun running for 45 minutes 6 days a week for a couple months and change my eating habits to make weight in December, but it allowed me to burn off permanent weight (fat) and further develop my endurance, stamina, and discipline. It also gave me a lot of time to contemplate how someone was going to pay for all these sacrifices. Condensed, my weight loss program started 45-60 days before the first weigh-in and it was facilitated with long-term endurance training to burn off fat. Once flat weight is made, stay within 5 pounds or less between weigh-ins. It will be difficult for several weeks but your body will adjust and it will be the new “normal.” Once we made flat weight, the rules allowed a 1 pound allowance in January, another pound in February, and another pound in March. They called it a "growth allowance." Then you got a pound for the second day of a tournament. So, you make 126 in Dec, 127 in Jan, 128 in Feb, 129 in March, and if you make it to the second day of a tournament, your get to make 130. State tournament rules also offered the opportunity to either weigh-in the night before or the morning of, each day of the tourney. That’s a great rule at any level. Wrestling season is long and grueling. It’s not losing weight that hurts performance and health as much as it is how you lose weight. Education and discipline are the keys.

A guy dropping to one knee is stalling or unmanageable? Come on, really? We end up on our knees all the time in wrestling. Weren't you all taught techniques from the feet and knees that allowed you to score by going over, under, or around your opponent? Wrestling an opponent who drops to his knee isn't much different than an opp on his feet...he's just shorter. If you have been trained appropriately, wrestling from the knees is an excellent scoring opportunity. With slight modifications, work into your tie-ups just like you would from on your feet: Snapdowns, sidesnaps, shrugs/shucks, underhook headwhips, short arm drags, elbow throws, knee trips, etc., are all options..if you know how to set them up and execute...if you don't, then I guess your next best recourse is to claim stalling or something like that. Kinda like when the top man catches an ankle...claim he's stalling if you don't know how to 1)prevent or 2)employ and effective counter and then create a rule that eliminates the down man's responsibility to effectively free himself. Part of any wrestler's game plan should incorporate tactics that make it look like your opponent is stalling. That can be done from feet or on top...harder to do on bottom tho.

https://vault.si.com/vault/1975/02/24/driving-up-with-a-compact-carr I'm sure very few of you ever had the pleasure of watching Jimmy Carr (Erie, Pa. and Univ of Ky). I have a long and interesting history with the Carr family dating back to 1975. Great people, great competitors. I believe that if Jimmy hadn't started training year round at such an early age, he would have been the next Gable or Sanderson. Just an incredible talent. Balance, technique, speed, strength, smarts...just an incredible athlete. I know from spending time reading comments on various websites, that no one from any era could have been good enough to compete with wrestlers today...I would vigorously dispute that precept because of folks like Jimmy (and others of course).

Milkovich placed 1, 1, 2, 2, and the last year was 1976. Thanks

Obviously, TF's and MD's were not a part of rules set prior to '85. Where it took 3 TD's to = 6pts, it now only takes 2 TD's... There are negative trends in Falls, Major Decisions, and Tech Falls (Figure 1) Falls have the largest decrease followed by Major decisions and Tech Falls (Figures 2 and 3) Overtime matches show a steady upward trend (Figures 1 and 3) In terms of number of matches, on the average Major Decisions are the highest followed by Falls and Tech Falls (Figures 4 and 5). In the last few years there has been an approximately equal number of Falls and Overtime matches (Figures 2 and 3) NCAA D1 Champinship Statistics Trends 2024.docx

Back in the 70's they had a rule that if you took two steps backwards, it was an automatic warning. It was a great rule until it just became pushing with no real attempt to attack. Stall calls in the first 10 seconds of a match...7:50 left to avoid getting called again. Consequently, it didn't last too long. So, if someone "steps out" of bounds, he gets penalized? I have watched enough wrestling in my lifetime where I truly cannot determine who went out of bounds first. So, that situation will be left to the ref to determine the guilty party or the silly brick gets thrown and we spend another 3-4 minutes watching video in slow motion several times to determine who went OB. Flow, momentum, stamina, among other things are now affected. Part of one's job is to expose an opponent who is avoiding "wrestling." To do that requires skill and tactical knowledge. The rules for stalling are already in place. Understanding the "stalling" rules either exposes the staller or disguises the staller. Smart wrestlers know how to do both. I really do not understand why being shrewd and clever to work the rules to your favor is so repulsive. What many of you are proposing is just moving more to freestyle. Why?

As I have stated before; wrestling is about control. you score because you control the tie-ups, top position, bottom position, the setups, the timing of the move, the pace, the defense, and to an extent...the clock time, among other things. I will always disagree that if the bottom man cannot be turned, then he should get a "free up," ala freestyle. Folkstyle requires one to be competent in all three disciplines: neutral, top, bottom. There is only 7min to wrestle...how much of it is mat wrestling? So, expecting everyone to turn an opponent like an "over easy" egg is just not realistic. And just because you cannot turn him does not mean you are stalling. Besides, not your fault he sucks on bottom. Whether one has legs in, a claw, a spiral, tight waist/chop, etc., the impact is all the same and similar to what KL stated.. 1. The bottom man gets tired from carrying his weight and the top man's 2. The bottom man isn't scoring any points and the clock is running down 3. The bottom man gets frustrated and may walk into a setup for back points or a pin 4. In college, accumulation of riding time over one minute is worth a point and that can be a huge difference in the outcome of a match. 5. Fatigue from not being able to get out, transfers to the feet. His reactions are slower, his anticipation is off, and if the match is close, he'll take some unnecessary shots and give up even more points. The implications are obvious. 6. For the rider, this is a great way to rest and kill time. All you have to do is look busy and keep the ref happy. The key here is LOOK BUSY...when you stop looking busy, you get called for stalling. That's what stalling on top is, or any position for that matter. I'm on top with 30 left and a stall call. I'm catching an ankle on the whistle for the obligatory 4 count, change off to tight waist/chop/knee up the butt...let him come up a little change to claw or a spiral, he posts and I bump his elbows with my knee to flatten him out, catch his wrists and drive him over them....30 secs killed...am I stalling? Yep, I am...Can they call me? nope! I was BUSY working things. Turning him never enters my mind. Same situation in neutral; up by 1 with 30secs left and a stall warning...Let's say I hit a quick single and can't finish..15-20 sec have passed..stalemate...we start again, I shoot again and get stuck on a single..time runs out. Am I stalling? If it's me, personally, my answer is YEP! I'm stalling like a big turd, but they can't call me. My whole intent was to shoot and put myself in a position so I don't get countered and scored on...make it look like I'm trying to score, but I'm just killing the clock and waiting to get my hand raised. Works like a charm.

First, how many years do you think they have been trying to address “stalling?” Next, why can’t he get out? I was taught how to prevent legs, get out of legs, and neutralize legs, so why can’t he? I was taught how to prevent a spiral and get out of a spiral, so why can’t he? I was taught how to prevent my ankles being caught and if they did, I was taught how to counter and get out of ankle rides, so why can’t he? I was taught how to prevent leg laces and I learned how to get out of them, so what’s preventing him from doing the same? And not just get out…but score points. In your scenario, how do you “stall your way to a ride out” without getting called for stalling? If you read the details of my posts on this subject you should discover that I don't encourage “doing nothing” on top. There are change offs and lots of movement while using leverages, torques, imbalances, and wt to keep him occupied, make him tired, frustrate him, run the clock, acquire a pt for RT, and he’s not scoring. And you’re keeping the ref happy. That’s not stalling. That’s just being smart about using the rules to one’s advantage. From 8th grade thru college, I have never, ever been warned for stalling on top or bottom. Wrestling is a thinking man’s game. Furthermore, if I knew someone could gain a point for every 30 seconds of RT, I’m doing two things: 1) learn how to get out effectively/efficiently and, 2) Learn how to control the top position. To me, this should equate to more active mat wrestling and more attempts for TD’s to put one in position to acquire the RT points and then to, consequently, get off bottom to limit RT points. Right now top man can “grasp” an ankle for 5 seconds. The bottom man does not have to react or wrestle any further because the rule will help him free his ankle. Hypothetical: Let’s pretend the rule was 15 or even 30 seconds on an ankle for each grasp. Do you really think the guy on bottom would still be compelled to do absolutely nothing for 15/30 seconds waiting for the time limit to kick in for him to let go while RT accumulates? I don’t. For some reason, you and others, are equating control to stalling and doing absolutely nothing at all. “Looking busy” is an art…people do it in jobs all the time. The one’s that get fired didn’t learn those techniques. Same in wrestling…do it well and no one bothers you…do a lousy job and you get dinged. I keep reading that the rules state you “must be working for a fall.” Tilts are not working for a fall…tilts are working for a tilt, so technically, to me, that could be construed as stalling…who gets pinned with a tilt? I believe my hypo brings mat wrestling back into demonstrating a comprehensive array of skill sets. Freestyle is basically TD’s and that’s seems where we are headed.

alex, first of all, you responded with an immediate assessment of the RT proposal, which indicated to me that you obviously had a well thought out logic that you could expound on to explain your presumptions, which I would happily respond back to. Secondly, starting a sentence with "Bro chill" does not lend itself to having a productive dialogue...at least to me it doesn't. Because I may have a different perspective certainly doesn't mean I am somehow "out of control," " angry," or "losing it," (quotes are mine) which "Bro chill" implies. I would suggest that you and 103 go back and read my other posts regarding riding/stalling, and if those aren't comprehensive enough I will be happy to present more detail. So with that, I look forward to your position that it would "mean more stalemate calls with neither top or bottom wrestler progressing," since most of my position is already on here. Pat...

nice dodge...or maybe you're just stalling....but not smartly. I will gladly explain my logic after I read yours.

alex...could you kindly explain to me how more points for RT would equate to increased stalemates and no progression on top or bottom? thanks. Pat

Wrestling is about control. Control the tie-ups, control his wrists, control his hips, control his head, control his elbows, control his ankles, etc. Mat wrestling and especially the issue of stalling always intrigues me. It was very clear to me that my responsibility on bottom was to control that position, regardless of the top man’s tactics. Conversely, on top, it was my responsibility to control that position regardless of my opponent’s tactics to prevent it. Pretty much all of wrestling is predicated on stimulus/response mechanisms that lead to CONTROL. Just like neutral, there are things that one can do on bottom to create a response/reaction that will allow him to set the top guy up for an escape/reversal…there are stimuli that one can apply to set the bottom guy up so that he will continually walk into traps that won’t allow him to escape, or it may allow pinning combinations. CONTROL. But, folks are nuts to think/expect that everyone should be working for a pin. What for? Why can’t he work just to win if he’s wrestling within the parameters of the rules? Ok, so throw a half here, reach for a cradle there, throw some legs, do a claw, spiral, catch a wrist and grunt a few times like you’re tying to tilt him…obligation met “working for a fall,” match ends, you win. None of those options are available when you have a guy on bottom who is very well educated on how to get out and hell bent on doing it. You have to hate being on bottom. Really good wrestlers are savvy enough to stay out of pinning combos, so the best you can do is to beat them with superior strategy and “smart stalling.” Like it or not, that’s what smart wrestlers can do, they CONTROL the rules and "smart stall." When you are in a tight match with a quality opponent, you just cannot, or should not, take foolish risks and jeopardize your lead. Know the rules and how to work them to your advantage. I still maintain that awarding 1pt for every 30 seconds of RT will eliminate a whole lot of issues…particularly stalling from top/bottom.

Read the stalling rule and that is the template that guides how you on how to "smart stall." It's a rather simple plan. Get ahead, stay ahead, get your hand raised. Wrestle within the rules. For the fella who "lost all sorts of matches in many different ways," all I can say is that perhaps you could have benefitted from the smart stalling strategy, unless you were never ahead. And you are correct, I should have explicitly stated that no one should be smart enough to manipulate the rules to their advantage to beat an opponent who isn't as gifted mentally. I was never bitter when I've lost, I was mostly livid....I was only bitter that I didn't wrestle smarter. Actually, the rule changes are the gradual continuation of eliminating folkstyle and transitioning to freestyle. Bummer.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but, can someone explain to me what stalling is and what a boring match is? I'm just guessing here, but is a wrestler who is 1-2pts ahead on a top notch, high caliber opponent supposed to take silly risks to please the fans or is he supposed to do what is necessary to win the match for himself and the team? I mean, if one is "stalling" and it's obvious, then he needs to be called, but if he's active and actually wrestling and doing the things as prescribed in the rule book to avoid being called for stalling, even tho he's not scoring and protecting his lead, then what is the problem? Did some of you lose to folks who got ahead, stayed ahead, and killed time effectively and if so, why weren't you ahead so you could have used the same mechanisms to win a match against a very tough opponent. It's easy to run the score up against an inferior competitor, but with top notch guys, you have to play chess and that's just the way it is even if you don't like it. High scoring matches tell me that both wrestlers made a lot of mistakes. That's generally how points are scored in all sports. Low scoring wins tells me that both wrestlers made few mistakes, were very calculating, and did not take foolish risks. A lot of this comes down to coaching. Good athletes are very coachable and understand/learn the nuances of the game. Good coaches know how to "program" their athletes for all kinds of situations. If you have never been to the top of the mountain, you may not understand what it takes to get there. You aren't going to TF or pin everyone. Along the way you're going to win some matches 2-1, 3-2, 4-3, OT, etc., some may be boring or appear to be "stalling," and to expect "fireworks" or "recklessness" to please the crowd for every match is just so unrealistic....and foolish.