Does Helen pass burroughs and become the GOAT?

[RawDog]

Helen looked super impressive at Worlds with no signs of slowing down.  I think she has 5 gold's now while Burroughs I believe has 7.

Does Helen end up getting more gold's than Burroughs and become the GOAT?

[gromit]

Helen has less gold but now has one more senior world/olympic level medal than Jordan.  Kyle Snyder and Helen are running neck and neck to be Maryland’s GOAT.

JB: 7 gold, 3 bronze

Maroulis: 5 gold, 2 silver, 4 bronze

Snyder: 5 gold, 3 silver, 2 bronze

[boconnell]

Are you talking about a mythical GOAT of men's and women's freestyle wrestling?  If she gets to 8 golds I still don't put her close to Burroughs. It's apples and oranges.  There is zero need for the comparison.  But if one is made it isn't close.  One of the biggest arguments for JB over John Smith is that in JB's era you had multiple Russians and fewer weight classes, meaning more competition.  That is a legitimate argument.  There is no argument for the idea that the competition in women's FS is anywhere close to the men's side.  I'm not talking about levels, I'm talking about depth of competition.  The sport is young and will need decades to catch up.  Winning titles in a still developing sport that only has a few tough nations is simply not the same.  

It should be enough to just celebrate her accomplishments in the field of women's wrestling and his in the field of men's wrestling.  

Edited 17 hours ago by boconnell

[TylerDurden]

There really isn't any need to compare Helen with any of her male counterparts. 

[bnwtwg]

1 hour ago, TylerDurden said:

There really isn't any need to compare Helen with any of her male counterparts. 

We aren't comparing male vs female. We are comparing the greatest USA wrestlers of all time.

Edited 15 hours ago by bnwtwg

[bnwtwg]

Adeline 6 gold, 10 medals

Burroughs 7 gold, 10 medals

Helen 5 gold, 11 medals and counting 

Snyder 5 gold, 10 medals and counting

Smith 6 consecutive gold (and lost at 2 worlds/olympics but still got a gold)

Baumgartner 5 gold, 13 medals

[TylerDurden]

8 hours ago, bnwtwg said:

We aren't comparing male vs female. We are comparing the greatest USA wrestlers of all time.

You most certainly are. 

[Hilton Head Joe]

10 hours ago, gromit said:

Helen has less gold but now has one more senior world/olympic level medal than Jordan.  Kyle Snyder and Helen are running neck and neck to be Maryland’s GOAT.

JB: 7 gold, 3 bronze

Maroulis: 5 gold, 2 silver, 4 bronze

Snyder: 5 gold, 3 silver, 2 bronze

Dang JB never lost in finals!

[Hilton Head Joe]

I never thought Baum's medal count could be beat!

[jchapman]

1 hour ago, Hilton Head Joe said:

Dang JB never lost in finals!

It's hard to lose in the finals in years you don't make it there.  Smith is 5 for 5! 

I kid, JB is one of the greatest ever.  What he did on a broken ankle is mind blowing.

[RandolphTJones]

Right now i'd still have JB #1 because of the Gold's and never losing in the finals. Appears both Snyder and Helen have a chance to add to their count for a few more years. 

[maligned]

12 hours ago, boconnell said:

 There is no argument for the idea that the competition in women's FS is anywhere close to the men's side.  I'm not talking about levels, I'm talking about depth of competition.  The sport is young and will need decades to catch up.  Winning titles in a still developing sport that only has a few tough nations is simply not the same.  

This argument is losing steam. All of our girls in their prime right now have grown up in the long-established BOYS system: wrestling boys, getting the same training as the boys, lifting and dieting like the boys, working just as hard as the boys. And we're only the 3rd to 5th best nation in the world in a sport that has 10+ nations contending for medals at each weight, with more nations overall than men's freestyle competing for medals at various weights. This is because all of their girls in their prime right now at this moment (not 1990) have grown up in fully developed systems similar to our system's level. 

And in that environment, Helen Maroulis is 33 years old and keeps beating all comers. 

[boconnell]

55 minutes ago, maligned said:

This argument is losing steam. All of our girls in their prime right now have grown up in the long-established BOYS system: wrestling boys, getting the same training as the boys, lifting and dieting like the boys, working just as hard as the boys. And we're only the 3rd to 5th best nation in the world in a sport that has 10+ nations contending for medals at each weight, with more nations overall than men's freestyle competing for medals at various weights. This is because all of their girls in their prime right now at this moment (not 1990) have grown up in fully developed systems similar to our system's level. 

And in that environment, Helen Maroulis is 33 years old and keeps beating all comers. 

You aren't being honest with yourself if you think the world competition in women's FS is close to the men (and again I'm not talking at all about level of wrestling).  John Smith had an easier path to medals and golds than Jordan Burroughs did.  This isn't saying that there weren't a bunch of incredible wrestlers in the 1980s.  Nobody is saying women's FS isn't good.  Nobody is saying that little girls aren't training just as hard as little boys.  But a sport with 1 generation isn't close to as competitive as a sport with many generations.  This isn't a hot take.  It's clear and obvious.  The worldwide participation numbers aren't close.  If people insist on having a GOAT conversation about JB and Maroulis, then this stuff can't be ignored.  Just like it can't be ignored when you talk about John Smith and JB.  

[jchapman]

49 minutes ago, boconnell said:

You aren't being honest with yourself if you think the world competition in women's FS is close to the men (and again I'm not talking at all about level of wrestling).  John Smith had an easier path to medals and golds than Jordan Burroughs did.  This isn't saying that there weren't a bunch of incredible wrestlers in the 1980s.  Nobody is saying women's FS isn't good.  Nobody is saying that little girls aren't training just as hard as little boys.  But a sport with 1 generation isn't close to as competitive as a sport with many generations.  This isn't a hot take.  It's clear and obvious.  The worldwide participation numbers aren't close.  If people insist on having a GOAT conversation about JB and Maroulis, then this stuff can't be ignored.  Just like it can't be ignored when you talk about John Smith and JB.  

John Smith had a pretty tough road just to make the US Olympic Team in 1988, he had to beat the defending Olympic Gold medalist.

[RetiredFromWrestling]

Burroughs has 1 olympic medal. He isn’t the Goat. The olympics are the pinnacle of the sport, 10 olympic-year non-olympic-weight world championships are not worth 1 olympic title. Smith has 2 olympic golds, big bruce has 1.5.