Making DC great again.

[JimmySpeaks]

40 minutes ago, fishbane said:

Lol not really.  The if you were to make a Venn diagram of police officers in a particular city and the members of the union that represents them there would be a 100% intersection.  Union leaders are elected by the members (officers) to represent them and are themselves police officers. 

A group of police officers saying don't blame us blame the union is a weak excuse.  The police officers are the only ones with the power to control the union.  As such police officers are responsible for the unions actions.

Control the union. Bahahahahahahahahhaha. Nobody said anything about police officers saying don’t blame us blame the union. Quit making shi$ up. Oh and union reps are responsible for the unions actions.  

Edited 21 hours ago by JimmySpeaks

[JimmySpeaks]

37 minutes ago, fishbane said:

Lol not really.  The if you were to make a Venn diagram of police officers in a particular city and the members of the union that represents them there would be a 100% intersection.  Union leaders are elected by the members (officers) to represent them and are themselves police officers. 

A group of police officers saying don't blame us blame the union is a weak excuse.  The police officers are the only ones with the power to control the union.  As such police officers are responsible for the unions actions.

https://www.google.com/search?q=are+police+and+police+unions+seperate+entities&rlz=1C9BKJA_enUS1057US1057&oq=are+police+and+police+unions+seperate+entities+&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIJCAEQIRgKGKABMgkIAhAhGAoYoAEyCQgDECEYChigATIKCAQQABiiBBiJBTIHCAUQABjvBTIKCAYQABiABBiiBDIHCAcQABjvBdIBCTE0OTUxajBqN6gCGbACAeIDBBgBIF_xBQCPnxz02flj&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

 

plenty for you to read about it  

 

Edited 21 hours ago by JimmySpeaks

[Caveira]

These two vids I think were for those surburban’s who think crime is just fine in Chicago and other crime ridden cities 

 

 

 

[fishbane]

1 hour ago, JimmySpeaks said:

Control the union. Bahahahahahahahahhaha. Nobody said anything about police officers saying don’t blame us blame the union. Quit making shi$ up. Oh and union reps are responsible for the unions actions.  

This all started with you blaming Democrats for defund the police and vilifying police which caused a police shortage and made positions hard to fill.  I found it odd to blame Democrats instead of the bad police behaviour caught on video.  You then blamed some bad police behaviour (corruption and protecting bad apples) on police unions.  

Again this is a strange distinction to try and make.  Police Unions in this country are in most cases locally organized.  When talking about a police union the union leadership are most often officers in the department they represent.  They are voted into those positions by members that are 100% officers from the department they represent.  They are local police.  If the police union is to blame for corruption in a particular area then the rank and file police officers in that locality are to blame.  This isn't some huge nationwide organization like NEA, the teamsters, or united steelworkers we are talking about.

[JimmySpeaks]

22 minutes ago, fishbane said:

This all started with you blaming Democrats for defund the police and vilifying police which caused a police shortage and made positions hard to fill.  I found it odd to blame Democrats instead of the bad police behaviour caught on video.  You then blamed some bad police behaviour (corruption and protecting bad apples) on police unions.  

Again this is a strange distinction to try and make.  Police Unions in this country are in most cases locally organized.  When talking about a police union the union leadership are most often officers in the department they represent.  They are voted into those positions by members that are 100% officers from the department they represent.  They are local police.  If the police union is to blame for corruption in a particular area then the rank and file police officers in that locality are to blame.  This isn't some huge nationwide organization like NEA, the teamsters, or united steelworkers we are talking about.

You’ve been proven wrong three times already. Why don’t you admit that then I respond to this stupid comment. 

[JimmySpeaks]

23 minutes ago, fishbane said:

This all started with you blaming Democrats for defund the police and vilifying police which caused a police shortage and made positions hard to fill.  I found it odd to blame Democrats instead of the bad police behaviour caught on video.  You then blamed some bad police behaviour (corruption and protecting bad apples) on police unions.  

Again this is a strange distinction to try and make.  Police Unions in this country are in most cases locally organized.  When talking about a police union the union leadership are most often officers in the department they represent.  They are voted into those positions by members that are 100% officers from the department they represent.  They are local police.  If the police union is to blame for corruption in a particular area then the rank and file police officers in that locality are to blame.  This isn't some huge nationwide organization like NEA, the teamsters, or united steelworkers we are talking about.

UNION REPS ARE NOT 100% OFFICERS FROM THE DEPARTMENT THEY REPRESENT.  

 

WRONG AGAIN 

[fishbane]

26 minutes ago, JimmySpeaks said:

UNION REPS ARE NOT 100% OFFICERS FROM THE DEPARTMENT THEY REPRESENT.  

 

WRONG AGAIN 

Writing in all caps or commenting from your other account will not make you any more correct.  Labor representatives are typically elected from the union membership to represent the members.  They are both employees and representatives.

Here is the leadership of the police union for the city that is the topic of this thread.  Which one isn't a police officer?  

[red viking]

Unions represent groups of workers for purpose of negotiating pay, conditions and benefits. Period. Anybody that tries to portray them as completely separate is an idiot. 

[JimmySpeaks]

8 hours ago, fishbane said:

Writing in all caps or commenting from your other account will not make you any more correct.  Labor representatives are typically elected from the union membership to represent the members.  They are both employees and representatives.

Here is the leadership of the police union for the city that is the topic of this thread.  Which one isn't a police officer?  

You went from 100% to typically.  Nice try RV wanna be or already is. 

Edited 8 hours ago by JimmySpeaks

[JimmySpeaks]

23 minutes ago, red viking said:

Unions represent groups of workers for purpose of negotiating pay, conditions and benefits. Period. Anybody that tries to portray them as completely separate is an idiot. 

Unions are corrupt and separate entities as the facts prove.  The union doesn’t hire or fire people. But then anyone with half a brain knows this 

[Bigbrog]

The bad police officers should be held accountable 100%...and for the most part they are.  But to blame the actual police for the defund the police movement is such an asinine take it's actually laughable.  The democrats and the MSM are 100% to blame for the defund the police movement.  Spin it all you want, play your mental gymnastics all you want, the democrats and the MSM are solely responsible for the attitude towards police officers (and now ICE).  You can kick and scream "but but what about that one bad one!!" all you want but it doesn't change the facts. 

Bottom line is I cannot for the life of me understand how someone who has half a brain can argue AGAINST trying to make cities with high crime more safe!  Hats off to the DC mayor for going against her party and clearly doing what is right for the people of DC even if it means getting help from the bad orange man.  I can only hope some of the other big cities do the same, or figure things out on their own so the NG doesn't need to be sent in.

[Caveira]

Some wanted to go farther than defunding

Minneapolis lawmakers vow to disband police department in historic move

This article is more than 5 years old

City council members declare intent to ‘abolish’ embattled agency and replace with alternative model in wake of George Floyd’s killing

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/07/minneapolis-city-council-defund-police-george-floyd

[fishbane]

1 hour ago, JimmySpeaks said:

You went from 100% to typically.  Nice try RV wanna be or already is. 

Lol. What I said was “When talking about a police union the union leadership are most often officers in the department they represent.  They are voted into those positions by members that are 100% officers from the department they represent.”

You then said “UNION REPS ARE NOT 100% OFFICERS FROM THE DEPARTMENT THEY REPRESENT.”  Which in no way contradicted what I had said.  

So are you accusing me of going from saying “most often” to “typically”?  That’s an odd distinction to call out, but you do that a lot.

I then asked you to find the individuals in the leadership of the union that represents DC MPD officers that arent MPD officers and you declined to do that.  You might be able to find some law enforcement union somewhere where the leadership isn’t 100% officers from that agency, but I don’t know of one.  There are hundreds? Thousands? Of locally organized police unions in this country.  Even if you find an exception it will not change the overall conclusion.  

[fishbane]

3 hours ago, Bigbrog said:

The bad police officers should be held accountable 100%...and for the most part they are.  But to blame the actual police for the defund the police movement is such an asinine take it's actually laughable.  The democrats and the MSM are 100% to blame for the defund the police movement.  Spin it all you want, play your mental gymnastics all you want, the democrats and the MSM are solely responsible for the attitude towards police officers (and now ICE).  You can kick and scream "but but what about that one bad one!!" all you want but it doesn't change the facts. 

An utterly ridiculous statement.  The instances of police misconduct are the facts.  That's what the media reports that swayed public sentiment.  Whether the media reports on it or not, the underlying facts will not change.  It is also impractical in a time when a huge fraction of the general public carries devices nearly all the time that are capable of recording police misconduct and can share them with the public without the help of the media that instances of police misconduct will escape reporting.  Blaming MSM and democrats ignores the real problem and blaming the police unions is tantamount to blaming the officers themselves.

2 hours ago, Caveira said:

Minneapolis lawmakers vow to disband police department in historic move

City council members declare intent to ‘abolish’ embattled agency and replace with alternative model in wake of George Floyd’s killing

Abolishing and seriously defunding are impractical ways to deal with police misconduct and ultimately not what happened in Minneapolis.  Any cuts were minor, ultimately restored and an order of magnitude less than the settlements the city paid out as a result of the misconduct of Chauvin and other MPD officers. Given the fiscal mess the settlements and COVID had created along with the toxic culture of the MPD its unsurprising some lawmakers thought of the MPD much like Elon Musk thought of USAID.

[Bigbrog]

2 minutes ago, fishbane said:

An utterly ridiculous statement.  The instances of police misconduct are the facts.  That's what the media reports that swayed public sentiment.  Whether the media reports on it or not, the underlying facts will not change.  It is also impractical in a time when a huge fraction of the general public carries devices nearly all the time that are capable of recording police misconduct and can share them with the public without the help of the media that instances of police misconduct will escape reporting.  Blaming MSM and democrats ignores the real problem and blaming the police unions is tantamount to blaming the officers themselves.

Abolishing and seriously defunding are impractical ways to deal with police misconduct and ultimately not what happened in Minneapolis.  Any cuts were minor, ultimately restored and an order of magnitude less than the settlements the city paid out as a result of the misconduct of Chauvin and other MPD officers. Given the fiscal mess the settlements and COVID had created along with the toxic culture of the MPD its unsurprising some lawmakers thought of the MPD much like Elon Musk thought of USAID.

What is an utterly ridiculous statement is to say that a few bad apples is the cause for the vitriol hate shown towards LOE and the reason there was a call for defunding the police.  The dems started the defund the police movement...that is FACT!  The media blew the bad apple cases out of proportion and promoted the "Hate the LOE" narrative and the defund the police narrative. 

Again, bad police officers should absolutely be held accountable and should be weeded out of any department.  But they account for a very very small percentage of the brave men and women who put the uniform on every day to protect people, and even those who hate them.  They are hero's!  We should be treating them as such.  Also, from personal experience, I can guarantee that the people that are hardest on officers who exhibit bad behavior are the vast majority of other officers.  They don't and won't put up with it.  Sure you can say in the past there have been bad precincts and that some officers were "protected" from their bad behavior, but to extrapolate that into today's policing and LOE agencies is ridiculous and quite ignorant.  Yet alone blaming a few bad apples for the defund the police movement.  

[JimmySpeaks]

3 hours ago, fishbane said:

Lol. What I said was “When talking about a police union the union leadership are most often officers in the department they represent.  They are voted into those positions by members that are 100% officers from the department they represent.”

You then said “UNION REPS ARE NOT 100% OFFICERS FROM THE DEPARTMENT THEY REPRESENT.”  Which in no way contradicted what I had said.  

So are you accusing me of going from saying “most often” to “typically”?  That’s an odd distinction to call out, but you do that a lot.

I then asked you to find the individuals in the leadership of the union that represents DC MPD officers that arent MPD officers and you declined to do that.  You might be able to find some law enforcement union somewhere where the leadership isn’t 100% officers from that agency, but I don’t know of one.  There are hundreds? Thousands? Of locally organized police unions in this country.  Even if you find an exception it will not change the overall conclusion.  

That’s not what you said. You said union reps are 100% cops. 

[fishbane]

3 minutes ago, JimmySpeaks said:

That’s not what you said. You said union reps are 100% cops. 

Feel free to quote where I said that.

[fishbane]

29 minutes ago, Bigbrog said:

What is an utterly ridiculous statement is to say that a few bad apples is the cause for the vitriol hate shown towards LOE and the reason there was a call for defunding the police. 

A ridiculous statement that I, in fact, did not make!  You can feel free to quote where I said that too. lol.

It's more than a few bad apples, but nowhere near a majority.  Still culpability for the toxic culture fall on the "good apples" in your metaphor.  In Minneapolis a bad apple like Chauvin doesn't become a FTO without superiors putting him there.  A bad apple like Lt. Bob Kroll who was president of the POFM at the time of the George Floyd murder didn't get to where he was without being promoted by superiors and voted into office by the rank and file. The same is true for of bad apple Michael Sauro who was fired and then rehired and promoted at MPD.  MPD didn't end up with bad apples as lieutenants, FTOs, in leadership positions at the POFM, and paying out $40M+ in settlements with a culture where other officers were "hardest" on officer misconduct and absolutely held them accountable, weeding them out.  It was a toxic culture that promoted them.  Just the those few I mentioned that have been convicted, banned from policing, and fired represents 1% of MPD officers.  Probably 2x+ that number have been disciplined that didn't make national news.  The department as a whole must take responsibility for the toxic culture and it is a culture that is too common in policing.

What is LOE?