Knock-ons from the Bulgaria decision

[wrestle87]

Where do you all think this will go long term both within Bulgaria and in the mercenary market more broadly.

First blush without changes, this shift in domestic sentiment in bulgarian wrestling immediately puts two caucasian transplants out in the cold permanently.  This has potential to really catch fire imo.

Given that russia and the US are the only major exporters of wrestlers in the citizenship for sport market, do you think this will have the ability to impact the michigan crew or the team mexico team puerto rico wrestlers?

Amine is apparently on a coin, so I assume he’s safe.

[GrandOlm]

53 minutes ago, wrestle87 said:

Where do you all think this will go long term both within Bulgaria and in the mercenary market more broadly.

First blush without changes, this shift in domestic sentiment in bulgarian wrestling immediately puts two caucasian transplants out in the cold permanently.  This has potential to really catch fire imo.

Given that russia and the US are the only major exporters of wrestlers in the citizenship for sport market, do you think this will have the ability to impact the michigan crew or the team mexico team puerto rico wrestlers?

Amine is apparently on a coin, so I assume he’s safe.

Maybe you were referring to other wrestlers (I think Bulgaria does have at least two or more caucasian wrestlers), but the other half of the famous duo, Novikov, is slavic not caucasian. He is a relatively rare ukranian transfer. 

Bulgaria probably has a stronger local wrestling culture (due to their past as the crown princes of greco and sold freestylers) that can throw its weight around and stick up for itself more than other transfer havens like Poland, Serbia, or Azerbaijan. So this might be a one off. 

But 75% of Euro freestyle gold and silver medalists being Russians in disguise, well that's not what wrestling's leadership wants. 

[Ragu]

7 hours ago, GrandOlm said:

But 75% of Euro freestyle gold and silver medalists being Russians in disguise, well that's not what wrestling's leadership wants. 

Really tough choice for some leaders will have to make or not make. Do we want best wrestling product or do we want wrestlers to represent their homeland? Bulgaria will fair better than others if thats the decision but that does leave a ton of transplants nationless when it comes to competition 

[Gantry]

Can someone provide a link or summary to what this decision is?  Thanks

[wrestle87]

29 minutes ago, Gantry said:

Can someone provide a link or summary to what this decision is?  Thanks

https://www.flowrestling.org/articles/14090061-bulgarian-wrestling-federation-banning-2-olympic-gold-medalists

[bnwtwg]

This is yuuuuge. Big kudos to national treasure @Jon_Kozak for providing the additional context. Looking forward to the follow-up over the following months.

My prediction: they are forced to sit out unless agreement$ are made at the local level. UWW wants nothing to do with country politics and absolutely will not overstep IOC regulations.

[D3 for LU]

2 hours ago, wrestle87 said:

https://www.flowrestling.org/articles/14090061-bulgarian-wrestling-federation-banning-2-olympic-gold-medalists

Interesting article from Flo... home grown vs transfers (& transfers need not apply here... so, say sayonara and pack your bags? )

D3

[Gantry]

1 hour ago, bnwtwg said:

 

My prediction: they are forced to sit out unless agreement$ are made at the local level. UWW wants nothing to do with country politics and absolutely will not overstep IOC regulations.

What are the IOC regulations here?  From the Flo article, it seems the "only transfer countries once" is a UWW thing and not an IOC thing. 

If that is true, maybe UWW gives them a one-time exemption for this given the national governing bodies change of heart. 

[bnwtwg]

23 minutes ago, Gantry said:

What are the IOC regulations here?  From the Flo article, it seems the "only transfer countries once" is a UWW thing and not an IOC thing. 

If that is true, maybe UWW gives them a one-time exemption for this given the national governing bodies change of heart. 

UWW follows Olympic transfer rules with an accelerated timeline to allow world championships competition to be, essentially, unimpeded when transferring. Given the precarious nature of wrestling on the IOC's shakedown chopping block, I highly doubt UWW will enter a scenario that could ruffle IOC feathers if the wrong series of events occurs at the wrong time.

Edited Friday at 04:03 PM by bnwtwg
Grammar

[GrandOlm]

Bulgaria are the ogs of mercenary wrestling. They were using transfers all the way back in the 90s, before it was cool. Soviet developed Nazaryan, Mureiko, were winning medals for them way back. I think it was the wrong way of trying to save a dying wrestling power and the consequences of those choices are still with them today.  

The rising tide did not lift all, ethnic Bulgarians are not winning medals like in the days of their fathers and grandfathers. 

I could imagine the frustration of the local Bulgarians. Foreign coaches, training foreign athletes, and everyone else left out in the cold with a vague promise that it will trickle down eventually. And then for all these years of trainers and high level athletes brought in; thirty years of this process culminates in two foreigners and no ethnic Bulgarians winning golds at the most recent olympics.  

[Dark Energy]

Good.  Too many transfers.  Goes for US guys too.  Let the actual people living in, and being raised by the nation and its people, be its representatives in sport.  Mercenaries not wanted.  

The win at all costs culture permeating sport is a shame.  It is sport.  

[Window12]

By the looks of things Bahrain is ok with having Tazhudinov and not terribly bothered about bona fide wrestlers not getting an opportunity to represent the country. I guess it also comes down to where you choose to go to. 

[GrandOlm]

56 minutes ago, Window12 said:

By the looks of things Bahrain is ok with having Tazhudinov and not terribly bothered about bona fide wrestlers not getting an opportunity to represent the country. I guess it also comes down to where you choose to go to. 

Bahrain has 0 wrestling culture. So Taz isn't really stealing opportunities from anyone, he's just artificially propping up Bahrain's sporting prowess on the global stage.

I think the bigger issue and what UWW is worried about is the Tier 2 nations getting replaced by transfers and it has gotten pretty bad in Freestyle ( nations like Hungary, Poland, Azerbaijan, Germany (greco), Bulgaria, Romania (greco), Ukraine, Belarus). 

It's that transfers simultaneity artificially inflate the health of wrestling in these nations while probably harming the grass roots wrestling scene.

I think wrestlers follow money or networking. If they have networking and can make money in a country, they will go there (and those networks appear to be growing larger and larger). Maybe Taz was directly approached by a wealthy patron from Bahrain. 

Edited Sunday at 02:38 AM by GrandOlm

[Window12]

4 hours ago, GrandOlm said:

Bahrain has 0 wrestling culture. So Taz isn't really stealing opportunities from anyone, he's just artificially propping up Bahrain's sporting prowess on the global stage.

I think the bigger issue and what UWW is worried about is the Tier 2 nations getting replaced by transfers and it has gotten pretty bad in Freestyle ( nations like Hungary, Poland, Azerbaijan, Germany (greco), Bulgaria, Romania (greco), Ukraine, Belarus). 

It's that transfers simultaneity artificially inflate the health of wrestling in these nations while probably harming the grass roots wrestling scene.

I think wrestlers follow money or networking. If they have networking and can make money in a country, they will go there (and those networks appear to be growing larger and larger). Maybe Taz was directly approached by a wealthy patron from Bahrain. 

I see your point. I suspect the potential future transfers need to weigh their options more carefully and opt for countries with 0 or near 0 wrestling cultures and not run the risk of backlash from the recipient countries own wrestling stakeholders. I guess any wrestler who was considering going to Bulgaria is now wise to the fact that it would not be a good move. What do you think of Valiev wrestling for Albania. What’s is the indigenous wrestling culture like there- approximately close to zero too? Having him wrestle for Albania helps or hinders indigenous development of wrestlers in Albania? Could there be benefits also for some countries in terms of encouraging wrestling within the country by taking elite world or continental medal contender transfers?

[Lucho]

It's quite surprising Bulgaria is doing this. I think this is going to kill off any opportunity they have in freestyle and greco for the next couple years at least until they develop some guys. In saying that though Milov who beat Aleksanyan at 97kg looks like a solid prospect for them to invest in for the meantime. I think this might set an overall precedence for UWW to reconsider the elligibility criteria for transfers and also might cause some countries like Bahrain and Azerbaijan to ramp up their signings and bring the best talent they can now that Bulgaria isn't an option for wrestlers. Another country to look out for is Qatar, they are looking to make a name for themselves in greco they have already brought an Iranian coach and two Iranian wrestlers over.

[GrandOlm]

4 hours ago, Lucho said:

It's quite surprising Bulgaria is doing this. I think this is going to kill off any opportunity they have in freestyle and greco for the next couple years at least until they develop some guys. In saying that though Milov who beat Aleksanyan at 97kg looks like a solid prospect for them to invest in for the meantime. I think this might set an overall precedence for UWW to reconsider the elligibility criteria for transfers and also might cause some countries like Bahrain and Azerbaijan to ramp up their signings and bring the best talent they can now that Bulgaria isn't an option for wrestlers. Another country to look out for is Qatar, they are looking to make a name for themselves in greco they have already brought an Iranian coach and two Iranian wrestlers over.

I don't think the faction that won this recent power struggle care that much about winning medals (at least in the short term). I think they were about taking back control of their wrestling federation at all costs. 

I'm not actually sure that they will go through with banning the wrestlers they already have. This might just be bluster or even misinformation. I do hope they at least ban future transfers. 

[GrandOlm]

7 hours ago, Window12 said:

I see your point. I suspect the potential future transfers need to weigh their options more carefully and opt for countries with 0 or near 0 wrestling cultures and not run the risk of backlash from the recipient countries own wrestling stakeholders. I guess any wrestler who was considering going to Bulgaria is now wise to the fact that it would not be a good move. What do you think of Valiev wrestling for Albania. What’s is the indigenous wrestling culture like there- approximately close to zero too? Having him wrestle for Albania helps or hinders indigenous development of wrestlers in Albania? Could there be benefits also for some countries in terms of encouraging wrestling within the country by taking elite world or continental medal contender transfers?

Albania is a non wrestling nation. Better than Bahrain but not good at all. A lot of these non wrestling nation programs are mostly comprised of 1st or 2nd generation immigrants, even putting the high level world teamer transfers aside.  Like I saw a short documentary about the UK program and it was a lot of low level wrestling wise Iranian 1st/2nd gen immigrants (complaining about not getting funding to go to big events, so that they can get teched in round 1 by another no hoper). 

I don't buy the benefit argument since a lot of these wrestlers don't even live in these countries. I mean Bulgaria is a test case, transfers aside, are they anywhere close to what they were in the communist era.... No not even close.

And even when they do live there, they start forming cliques and bringing more people in from abroad. Imagine if Penn State, Iowa, and Oklahoma St. had Russian coaches, a lot of Russian transfers, were instructing in Russian, and had most of the NIL money. Do you think that would be good for US wrestling?

A lot of the local Bulgarian World Class champions from 80s, 70s, maybe the 60s are still around. They don't like what they are seeing and they helped kick up a fuss about the "new normal" state of affairs. This whole pushback probably wouldn't have happened without them. 

 

Edited Sunday at 02:17 PM by GrandOlm

[Window12]

4 hours ago, GrandOlm said:

Albania is a non wrestling nation. Better than Bahrain but not good at all. A lot of these non wrestling nation programs are mostly comprised of 1st or 2nd generation immigrants, even putting the high level world teamer transfers aside.  Like I saw a short documentary about the UK program and it was a lot of low level wrestling wise Iranian 1st/2nd gen immigrants (complaining about not getting funding to go to big events, so that they can get teched in round 1 by another no hoper). 

I don't buy the benefit argument since a lot of these wrestlers don't even live in these countries. I mean Bulgaria is a test case, transfers aside, are they anywhere close to what they were in the communist era.... No not even close.

And even when they do live there, they start forming cliques and bringing more people in from abroad. Imagine if Penn State, Iowa, and Oklahoma St. had Russian coaches, a lot of Russian transfers, were instructing in Russian, and had most of the NIL money. Do you think that would be good for US wrestling?

A lot of the local Bulgarian World Class champions from 80s, 70s, maybe the 60s are still around. They don't like what they are seeing and they helped kick up a fuss about the "new normal" state of affairs. This whole pushback probably wouldn't have happened without them. 

 

Yes in this context what has happened in Bulgaria makes sense. I guess it will potentially be good for Bulgarian wrestling. As far as Bahrain Albania Qatar Slovakia and Sanmarino are concerned I guess having Olympic/World/European medals is good on paper for the reputation of sporting prowess for the country. Hungry and AZE are probably happy to say we are still keeping up with the rest of them as well. Although AZE use of transfers is likely to be counterproductive for the native wrestlers based on what you and others have said.Interestingly a couple of years ago Massoumi was rumoured to be offered life changing money to move to AZE. I suspect that may still happen if he does not get past Zare as Iran rep.

[Jon_Kozak]

On 4/18/2025 at 8:59 AM, bnwtwg said:

This is yuuuuge. Big kudos to national treasure @Jon_Kozak for providing the additional context. Looking forward to the follow-up over the following months.

My prediction: they are forced to sit out unless agreement$ are made at the local level. UWW wants nothing to do with country politics and absolutely will not overstep IOC regulations.

Appreciate you sharing the article...I think there's enough time before worlds that Ramazanov and Novikov will end up wrestling at worlds. We heard from Ramazanov and he seemed optimistic about being able to compete moving forward but did acknowledge the complications. 

If I had to guess, this is more of a power play by the new federation president. It's certainly serious and probably means they won't accept transfers from here on out.