Hendrickson wins Hodge

[Dogbone]

2 minutes ago, BarSeries said:

Strength of competition 

Fair. Between the two I would still give the edge to MM.  I think its undeniable that TF are harder than MD and MM blew Carter out in that category. 

1) record = Tie

2) Dominance - MM

3) Competition = Carter

4) Sportmanship = MM

 

 

 

[Caveira]

24 minutes ago, ionel said:

April fools joke correct.  

I was implying Iowa fans still hate okie state.   But the April fools joke reference is kind of funny  

[scourge165]

4 hours ago, Caveira said:

You may not be alone.  But you’re 100% in the minority.   Look at the proverbial scoreboard where the hwt won.

The HWT won because he beat Gable...I don't think he wins it if his opponent is Connor Medberry or Greg Kerkvliet. 

Stevenson had 3 pins this year and...10 techs. Are we saying if Gable doesn't get taken down in the last 15 seconds he loses the Hodge this year as a result of fewer pins?

Maybe the biggest upset of all-time determined this award...pretending otherwise is...kinda silly. 

[scourge165]

20 minutes ago, Dogbone said:

For all the Carter was robbed people, I have an honest question.   Wasn't MM the more deserving Hodge winner than Carter?   Same record, higher bonus rate.   Is the only reason people are pushing for Carter because he got 5 titles or he is older?   Wasn't Michell more dominate than Carter this year?

I'm not a "Carter was robber," person, I knew Hendrickson would win it when he beat Gable. 

I did say I thought based on this year Mesenbrink was the most dominant. There was a wider gap between him and every other '65 all year. 

I would have give it to Carter because he's never won it, he won 5 Titles, he beat Keck twice(I think taking him on in the All-Star Classic took balls) and I think he's underrated...somehow. 

But I would have given it to both. I think Wyatt deserved it with Stevenson, but...I just thought it should have been split. 

 

[BAC]

23 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

I agree.  But what if I show you a heavyweight with 13 pins and a 184 pounder with 6 pins, then who is more dominant?  No particular wrestlers in mind here, just making up some numbers

Lol.  I'm not specifically saying Carter's 6 pins are more impressive than Wyatt's 13, but I do discount the value of Wyatt's pins somewhat given the weight class he's in.  I'd say the same for Parris last year.

But it cuts the other way too.  I value Hendrickson's techs at HWT a bit more highly than I would if he weren't a HWT, so his 8 vs. Carter's 10 is very impressive.

Because it cuts both ways, I'm fine with comparing HWTs and non-HWTs by bonus %.  What I don't like is reducing it to a "score," e.g. Hendrickson's "score" is 5.13 vs. 4.89 for Carter (I'm making that up since I don't recall the actual scores), since I think it artificially inflates HWTs over non-HWTs.  Stick to bonus %.

I think I'm backed up in this point by the fact that WIN used to have separate criteria for "dominance" and "number of pins."  The scrapped "number of pins," leaving only "dominance," implicitly recognizing that pins are only one form of dominance and don't merit special attention.

What do you think?  

Edited Tuesday at 04:36 PM by BAC

[Caveira]

13 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

The HWT won because he beat Gable...I don't think he wins it if his opponent is Connor Medberry or Greg Kerkvliet. 

Stevenson had 3 pins this year and...10 techs. Are we saying if Gable doesn't get taken down in the last 15 seconds he loses the Hodge this year as a result of fewer pins?

Maybe the biggest upset of all-time determined this award...pretending otherwise is...kinda silly. 

I’m not understanding the mental gymnastics….   A loss is a loss boss.    I get it you really really really want him to win.  So you can I guess cheer and rah rah and what not.   He lost.  It is what it is.   
 

again.  Maybe if someone could figure out why so many fans in the us don’t like him.  Maybe he shouldn’t have been an Arrogant dik head on podcasts and twitter.   Maybe he shouldn’t have hitched himself to the other arrogant mma dik bad mouthing his competitors.     Maybe if the hodge was important to him he would have made changes to his behavior.  
 

hint.  Some of his competitors vote for this trophy. 
 

hint.   The fans vote for this trophy.   
 

hint.  Don’t be a dik.  If you really want this trophy.  
 

hint.  I wonder why fans don’t bad mouth mm.   I have my suspicions.  

[BarSeries]

 

[BAC]

4 hours ago, Caveira said:

You may not be alone.  But you’re 100% in the minority.   Look at the proverbial scoreboard where the hwt won.

I'm fine with being in the minority. Heck, I'm doubly in the minority, as I thought Wyatt should get OW (they gave it to Carter) while Carter should get the Hodge (which went to Wyatt).  Doesn't mean I'm right -- there's a reasonable case to be made for the other viewpoint -- but being in the minority doesn't mean I'm wrong, either.

In any case, being told to look at the "scoreboard," and seeing how every other post you make is a personal attack on Starocci, tells me you're not so much interested in the right person getting these awards, and more interested in it not going to a member of a team you dislike.  A tad shallow, don't you think?  I get that you're an Iowa fan, but it's a shame you're not a wrestling fan too.

[okokzach]

1 hour ago, BAC said:

Yes, it's a massive difference, but year in and year out, the trend olds:  HWTs are easiest to pin.

Echoing what okokzach said above, I do agree it's mostly a function of size discrepancy at the D1 level.  The biggest pinners are always the biggest dudes.  It also helps explain your point about Trumble, who was a 197lber 2 years ago and wrestled 97kg last year. Wyatt must have 50 pounds on him easy.

None of this is to denigrate Wyatt in any way, who is a freak of an athlete.  But if you show me a 283lb HWT with 10 pins and a 149lber with 10 pins, I'd say the 149lber is probably the more dominant wrestler.   

Lol you think Trumble only weighed 205 this year? 

[scourge165]

19 hours ago, BarSeries said:

 

By this logic...Gable probably should have still won it. 

[1032004]

23 minutes ago, BAC said:

Lol.  I'm not specifically saying Carter's 6 pins are more impressive than Wyatt's 13, but I do discount the value of Wyatt's pins somewhat given the weight class he's in.  I'd say the same for Parris last year.

But it cuts the other way too.  I value Hendrickson's techs at HWT a bit more highly than I would if he weren't a HWT, so his 8 vs. Carter's 10 is very impressive.

Because it cuts both ways, I'm fine with comparing HWTs and non-HWTs by bonus %.  What I don't like is reducing it to a "score," e.g. Hendrickson's "score" is 5.13 vs. 4.89 for Carter (I'm making that up since I don't recall the actual scores), since I think it artificially inflates HWTs over non-HWTs.  Stick to bonus %.

I think I'm backed up in this point by the fact that WIN used to have separate criteria for "dominance" and "number of pins."  The scrapped "number of pins," leaving only "dominance," implicitly recognizing that pins are only one form of dominance and don't merit special attention.

What do you think?  

If anything, Wyatt’s pins were more impressive than Carter’s.  Carter did not pin a single NCAA qualifier this year.  Wyatt had 7, including 2 over the guy that finished 4th.

But, I will acknowledge that the “dominance” and “quality of competition” criteria were pretty close between Wyatt and Carter.  I know most of the talking heads poo pooed it, but IMO, where it wasn’t close was the sportsmanship criteria. 
 

Speaking of the talking heads, @Husker_Du and Basch arguing Wyatt vs Carter was frickin hilarious 

Edited Tuesday at 04:58 PM by 1032004

[scourge165]

9 minutes ago, BAC said:

I'm fine with being in the minority. Heck, I'm doubly in the minority, as I thought Wyatt should get OW (they gave it to Carter) while Carter should get the Hodge (which went to Wyatt).  Doesn't mean I'm right -- there's a reasonable case to be made for the other viewpoint -- but being in the minority doesn't mean I'm wrong, either.

In any case, being told to look at the "scoreboard," and seeing how every other post you make is a personal attack on Starocci, tells me you're not so much interested in the right person getting these awards, and more interested in it not going to a member of a team you dislike.  A tad shallow, don't you think?  I get that you're an Iowa fan, but it's a shame you're not a wrestling fan too.

Yeah, that was a guy who wanted to "pre-emptively" keep Starocci off the Mt Rushmore of Wrestlers, so he made a huge deal out of the Ferrari match.

I'd say the Hodge voting suggests you're not too far in the minority. 
I said I thought a tech showed more dominance than a pin and...that position needed to be "defended." 

I wanted to see it split. I thought Starocci earned a Hodge...but Bo Nickal's whining doesn't really help his case. 

[okokzach]

16 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

If anything, Wyatt’s pins were more impressive than Carter’s.  Carter did not pin a single NCAA qualifier this year.  Wyatt had 7, including 2 over the guy that finished 4th.

But, I will acknowledge that the “dominance” and “quality of competition” criteria were pretty close between Wyatt and Carter.  I know most of the talking heads poo pooed it, but IMO, where it wasn’t close was the sportsmanship criteria. 
 

Speaking of the talking heads, @Husker_Du and Basch arguing Wyatt vs Carter was frickin hilarious 

A few more fun facts:

• Zero takedown matches: Carter 1 (against a true freshman), Wyatt 0
• Single takedown matches: Carter 2, Wyatt 1 (against Gable)
• Overtime matches: Carter 2, Wyatt 0

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

1 hour ago, okokzach said:

Lol you think Trumble only weighed 205 this year? 

Trumble is a very large man.  U23 World Champ at 97 kg and Olympic alternate at 97kg.  Wyatt ragdolled him.  What did Trumble weigh at nationals?  I am guessing 230+.  Wyatt murdered him and it look like Trumble's whole body ached.  Then Wyatt put his arm around Isaac and whispered some words of encouragement; class act, but also showed the difference in levels.