Tom formerly Tofurky Posted March 31 Author Posted March 31 16 minutes ago, 1032004 said: OK that’s what I thought you meant. The kids probably wouldn’t quit, but many coaches and refs would. And a lot of the ones that would remain wouldn’t be that knowledgeable about it. I'm not so sure about that last one. Refs don't usually quit because there's too much work. It's usually $#!++% parents and coaches who push them out. We are seeing that more and more young folks are participating in Free and GR. That's great for the future of the sport and both styles, as those current students and recent grads will be leading teams in the near future.
scourge165 Posted March 31 Posted March 31 1 hour ago, Tom formerly Tofurky said: I disagree. It comes down to rule adoption and implementation, not trading wrestling for Sambo, for example. Well, if it's not that big of a difference, then why change? Let them adjust to the "rule adoption and implementation," as they have been the whole time? You're citing all these guys who've had success at the next level. That seems pretty good. Why mess with a good thing.
Scouts Honor Posted March 31 Posted March 31 10 hours ago, scourge165 said: How is that? I don't think the size of the school has anything to do with kids picking one sport and dedicating themselves to that. at a big school... your average player isn't going to have much of a chance at making the team, let alone starting, so they play the one, maybe two sports they can
scourge165 Posted March 31 Posted March 31 33 minutes ago, Scouts Honor said: at a big school... your average player isn't going to have much of a chance at making the team, let alone starting, so they play the one, maybe two sports they can No...kids are specializing before HS now. And that's still just flawed logic. 22 kids start on Football, plus you're rotating kids in constantly, kicker, returners. You think you have stud football players who can't be one of the best of those? It has nothing to do with the size of the High School, kids are doing it before then. Bo Bassett never played Football and even superstars like Micah Parsons did it for a year in HS. You're into Baseball, you go into Wood Bat season, you spend Football season getting private lessons and weight training your sport. Working your shoulder muscles for Baseball...etc...etc... Wrestling, you're traveling 3-4 days a week. 10,000. That's not just dawning on parents and kids when they see how big their HS Football team will be. Also, I had 450 kids in my class, we had 75 kids each class out for Football, I played every year. We had 50 kids show up for Baseball tryouts, played every year and 70 kids in the Wrestling Room. I didn't specialize because...my coaches encouraged other sports and I'm too old, it hadn't started yet. But now, they want you focusing on one sport all year round with AAU and...a million other things.
Elevator Posted March 31 Posted March 31 11 hours ago, WrestlingRecords.com said: Folkstyle is junk. It should have been killed long ago. If we only did freestyle, our national team would be more competitive. I'm tired of us losing to the Soviet countries. Now we can't even beat Japan. I don't think folkstyle will ever go away because it's an American thing, and too many coaches/camps have a financial incentive to keep top/bottom wrestling. If I can only have one, would take folkstyle. Freestyle is fun and I admire the achievements, but not for me the primary goal fo thye sport. Have not studied it, but I would guess that folkstyle wrestling dwarfs freestyle in the U.S. and our collegiate wrestling is so much fun that even Ono wants in. We should ditch greco at the olympics - what a huge bore. Worth it to add back 3 weights in freestyle. 2
Scouts Honor Posted March 31 Posted March 31 1 hour ago, scourge165 said: No...kids are specializing before HS now. And that's still just flawed logic. 22 kids start on Football, plus you're rotating kids in constantly, kicker, returners. You think you have stud football players who can't be one of the best of those? It has nothing to do with the size of the High School, kids are doing it before then. Bo Bassett never played Football and even superstars like Micah Parsons did it for a year in HS. You're into Baseball, you go into Wood Bat season, you spend Football season getting private lessons and weight training your sport. Working your shoulder muscles for Baseball...etc...etc... Wrestling, you're traveling 3-4 days a week. 10,000. That's not just dawning on parents and kids when they see how big their HS Football team will be. Also, I had 450 kids in my class, we had 75 kids each class out for Football, I played every year. We had 50 kids show up for Baseball tryouts, played every year and 70 kids in the Wrestling Room. I didn't specialize because...my coaches encouraged other sports and I'm too old, it hadn't started yet. But now, they want you focusing on one sport all year round with AAU and...a million other things. i dont disagree with any of this what i am saying.. is kids(average or worse in a sport) in omaha are stopping long before high school in many cases, or stopping in ninth grade... b/c they see the writing on the wall. I dont disagree that some kids are specializing early... im just saying if im average at tennis and good at wrestling.. im wrestling in that larger system in a small school... the coaches NEED all they can get... so more of them stay in multi sports it's probably also a little bit different than when you were in school
WrestlingRecords.com Posted March 31 Posted March 31 1 hour ago, Elevator said: If I can only have one, would take folkstyle. Freestyle is fun and I admire the achievements, but not for me the primary goal fo thye sport. Have not studied it, but I would guess that folkstyle wrestling dwarfs freestyle in the U.S. and our collegiate wrestling is so much fun that even Ono wants in. We should ditch greco at the olympics - what a huge bore. Worth it to add back 3 weights in freestyle. I just want us to have a better chance to succeed at the highest level of the sport. Which is the Olympics. I don't think folkstyle's popularity has anything to do with how fun it is. Folkstyle is tradition. Ono wants to get paid. 1 1
Tom formerly Tofurky Posted March 31 Author Posted March 31 12 hours ago, scourge165 said: Well, if it's not that big of a difference, then why change? Let them adjust to the "rule adoption and implementation," as they have been the whole time? You're citing all these guys who've had success at the next level. That seems pretty good. Why mess with a good thing. I see your point, but I look at it in a "big picture" approach. Maintaining one style that doesn't abruptly end any later than college and offers no professional opportunity doesn't grow the sport. I think everyone here wants the sport to grow, right? Switching to Olympic Freestyle CAN bring in more Matsunoke Onos, Abdurahkmananov brothers, Alan Gelogaevs, Sanshiro Abes, Yojiro Uetakes, etc. and wrestlers from around the globe to compete in college wrestling, which raises the level of domestic wrestling, which means more eyes on the sport, which means more money, which means more support, which COULD mean more teams (Canadian university teams joining the NCAA)... American collegiate isn't having that conversation. The conversation being had is on full display here, in this thread. To paraphrase: "The United States perfected wrestling style. It's so good that we are the only ones who compete in it. The rest of the world needs to adopt our style... which has no and never will have a World/Olympic/professional support or option beyond college." I am not suggesting this is the panacea, but MORE cool storylines in the sport about wrestling at the U.S. collegiate level being a real world melting pot also speaks to administrators at colleges who are looking to attract foreign students, their guaranteed money, and their enrollment, which is GREAT for the sport, especially as the real world enrollment cliff in this country continues forward. Basic principles of business regarding supply and demand may take place from there, and I think that they will, given the opportunity. Yes, all of my statements are hypotheses. However, instead of selling out wrestling to MMA and BJJ or remaining insular to the point of potential stagnation, why not focus on growing WRESTLING?
Caveira Posted March 31 Posted March 31 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Tom formerly Tofurky said: Yes, all of my statements are hypotheses. However, instead of selling out wrestling to MMA and BJJ or remaining insular to the point of potential stagnation, why not focus on growing WRESTLING? MMA will and is making more folkstyle wrestlers more $$ than Olympic success ever will. Americans consume and care about mma thousands of times more than Olympic success as well. WASHINGTON, D.C. -- The U.S. viewing audience for the 2024 Paris Games is poised to be the smallest for any prior Summer Olympics Gallup has measured. Thirty-five percent of U.S. adults plan to watch a great deal (10%) or fair amount (25%) of the games, which is down from 48% measured for the 2016 Olympics and figures just shy of 60% from 2000 to 2012. Edited March 31 by Caveira
scourge165 Posted March 31 Posted March 31 5 hours ago, Tom formerly Tofurky said: I see your point, but I look at it in a "big picture" approach. Maintaining one style that doesn't abruptly end any later than college and offers no professional opportunity doesn't grow the sport. I think everyone here wants the sport to grow, right? Switching to Olympic Freestyle CAN bring in more Matsunoke Onos, Abdurahkmananov brothers, Alan Gelogaevs, Sanshiro Abes, Yojiro Uetakes, etc. and wrestlers from around the globe to compete in college wrestling, which raises the level of domestic wrestling, which means more eyes on the sport, which means more money, which means more support, which COULD mean more teams (Canadian university teams joining the NCAA)... American collegiate isn't having that conversation. The conversation being had is on full display here, in this thread. To paraphrase: "The United States perfected wrestling style. It's so good that we are the only ones who compete in it. The rest of the world needs to adopt our style... which has no and never will have a World/Olympic/professional support or option beyond college." I am not suggesting this is the panacea, but MORE cool storylines in the sport about wrestling at the U.S. collegiate level being a real world melting pot also speaks to administrators at colleges who are looking to attract foreign students, their guaranteed money, and their enrollment, which is GREAT for the sport, especially as the real world enrollment cliff in this country continues forward. Basic principles of business regarding supply and demand may take place from there, and I think that they will, given the opportunity. Yes, all of my statements are hypotheses. However, instead of selling out wrestling to MMA and BJJ or remaining insular to the point of potential stagnation, why not focus on growing WRESTLING? Respectfully, I don't care about raising the level of dominance for the tiny fraction of kids that will Wrestle it. I want to see kids going out for Wrestling. I don't think you'll see as many going out if it's Freestyle(and Greco...obviously we have to keep Greco since this is all about those 6 spots on the Olympic team and 10 spots on the world team)...and to be honest, I wouldn't let my kid Wrestle Freestyle when he was 7-8 years old. It's more dangerous. That's the "big picture" to me. Kids into HS then into College and then into the job market having competed and dealt with everything Wrestling teaches them. You say you're looking at the big picture, but you're not. You're looking at the smallest possible picture from which you could view American Wrestling.
scourge165 Posted March 31 Posted March 31 7 hours ago, Scouts Honor said: i dont disagree with any of this what i am saying.. is kids(average or worse in a sport) in omaha are stopping long before high school in many cases, or stopping in ninth grade... b/c they see the writing on the wall. I dont disagree that some kids are specializing early... im just saying if im average at tennis and good at wrestling.. im wrestling in that larger system in a small school... the coaches NEED all they can get... so more of them stay in multi sports it's probably also a little bit different than when you were in school Yes, this is the point I'm making. When I was in School, you played 3-4 sports. You did that at a school with 450 kids in my grade(and mine was a small one). Not...they don't. It's not because of the size of schools. It's because kids specialize in the sports they're the best at. When I'm talking about athletes specializing, I'm talking about the type who would be able to play whatever sport they wanted in most cases. If you're talking about kids who are average or worse in sports, well...that's not exactly the demographic we're talking about here. We're talking about guys like Aedon Sinclair types. Guys who are great at one sport and that's what they focus on and they go and get the best training available and they compete all season because they think(or just as often, their parents think) it's the only way their kid is going to be able to compete. Did AJ Ferrari play Football? I mean, it wouldn't surprise me either way, but I doubt it.
WrestlingRecords.com Posted March 31 Posted March 31 11 minutes ago, scourge165 said: Respectfully, I don't care about raising the level of dominance for the tiny fraction of kids that will Wrestle it. I want to see kids going out for Wrestling. I don't think you'll see as many going out if it's Freestyle(and Greco...obviously we have to keep Greco since this is all about those 6 spots on the Olympic team and 10 spots on the world team)...and to be honest, I wouldn't let my kid Wrestle Freestyle when he was 7-8 years old. It's more dangerous. That's the "big picture" to me. Kids into HS then into College and then into the job market having competed and dealt with everything Wrestling teaches them. You say you're looking at the big picture, but you're not. You're looking at the smallest possible picture from which you could view American Wrestling. I'm not sure freestyle wrestling is any more dangerous than folkstyle. Football is 10x more dangerous. Way more kids are playing football. Why would switching from folkstyle to freestyle mean less kids would go out for it? Outside of rare edge cases.
scourge165 Posted March 31 Posted March 31 20 hours ago, WrestlingRecords.com said: Folkstyle is junk. It should have been killed long ago. If we only did freestyle, our national team would be more competitive. I'm tired of us losing to the Soviet countries. Now we can't even beat Japan. I don't think folkstyle will ever go away because it's an American thing, and too many coaches/camps have a financial incentive to keep top/bottom wrestling. No...it's not. Our Freestyle team is...pretty competitive. To the last one...just...no. LOL...you think there's a big conspiracy because coaches are rolling in that sweet, sweet money teaching escapes? 20 hours ago, WrestlingRecords.com said: If college and high school wrestling magically became freestyle tomorrow, no one is going to quit wrestling. Or not sign up to wrestle. Folkstyle and freestyle are pretty similar. Strongly disagree. Look at the rules for Freestyle vs Folkstyle. You get a kid on a double on your shoulders in Folkstyle, what's the ref saying? "under control, under control." Not, "screw it, launch him, see where he lands." Yeah, I think you're wrong about not losing kids. But I agree with your last sentence. They are PRETTY similar. So lets stop whining about it and just...keep Wrestling. 1
scourge165 Posted March 31 Posted March 31 9 minutes ago, WrestlingRecords.com said: I'm not sure freestyle wrestling is any more dangerous than folkstyle. Football is 10x more dangerous. Way more kids are playing football. Why would switching from folkstyle to freestyle mean less kids would go out for it? Outside of rare edge cases. Oh...well, it is. And no, Football is not 10X more dangerous. I'm not going real far into this, but take this and then apply it to kids who don't have the body control or strength to even bring them back to this type of control and tell me you're "not sure it's any more dangerous." This is a big more dangerous. 1
WrestlingRecords.com Posted April 1 Posted April 1 23 minutes ago, scourge165 said: Oh...well, it is. And no, Football is not 10X more dangerous. I'm not going real far into this, but take this and then apply it to kids who don't have the body control or strength to even bring them back to this type of control and tell me you're "not sure it's any more dangerous." This is a big more dangerous. This entire conversation is dumb, because folkstyle will never change. If we switched to freestyle, our national team would be more competitive. I wish people cared about that. No, there's no conspiracy. The reason we do folkstyle is because it's tradition/an American thing. Which I said in that quote you highlighted. People do have a financial incentive to keep folkstyle. Granby school of wrestling and Ben Askren's top camps back in the day. That's probably super minor though. When I said football was 10x more dangerous, I was using hyperbole. Football is more dangerous. Plenty of statistics and studies to back this up. You say freestyle is more dangerous than folk. It very well might be. This isn't a fact. And you may be wrong. I haven't seen any statistics on this. Just because one dude can't defend a Fireman's doesn't make it more dangerous. I was just saying I don't see why the danger level would hold anyone back, when the most popular HS sport is way more dangerous.
scourge165 Posted April 1 Posted April 1 10 minutes ago, WrestlingRecords.com said: When I said football was 10x more dangerous, I was using hyperbole. Football is more dangerous. Plenty of statistics and studies to back this up. You say freestyle is more dangerous than folk. It very well might be. This isn't a fact. Oh C'mon...there's no slams in Freestyle, the higher amplitude the throw, the more points. I don't know how you can possibly even argue it's not more dangerous? It's common sense. And there's no "studies" to back up Freestyle Wrestling is more dangerous compared to Folkstyle(or Football) because WE DON'T WRESTLE FREESTYLE. 11 minutes ago, WrestlingRecords.com said: People do have a financial incentive to keep folkstyle. Granby school of wrestling and Ben Askren's top camps back in the day. That's probably super minor though. Askren's camps, nothing would change there. Do you think if we specialized in Freestyle, people wouldn't still go to AWA? Of course they would. The Granby Camp? Yeah, I'm sure that'd just be replaced by more Freestyle camps. 12 minutes ago, WrestlingRecords.com said: This entire conversation is dumb, because folkstyle will never change. If we switched to freestyle, our national team would be more competitive. I wish people cared about that. I agree on the first part. Folkstyle will never change, it will be what we Wrestle in High School and College. Our National team is competitive, but here again, 6 spots for the Olympics, 10 for the World Championships. You think that's worth changing the style of Wrestling that hundreds of thousands of kids participate in?
Caveira Posted April 1 Posted April 1 (edited) 33 minutes ago, WrestlingRecords.com said: This entire conversation is dumb, because folkstyle will never change. If we switched to freestyle, our national team would be more competitive. I wish people cared about that. Why is changing our great sport worth going to something that: 1) it’s a demonstrable fact fans in the us prefer folkstyle. 2) its also a fact that the athletes prefer folkstyle. See #5. 3) the American public in general is not moved one way or the other if we do slightly better than we do today on the world stage. And we are pretty dominant on the world stage today. See #5. 4) you already have a freestyle season. It’s like you’re whining that you don’t have a season when you in fact have one. See #5. 5) if athletes prioritized Olympic medals, and thought folkstyle was hurting them they simply would do freestyle year round. No one is stopping them. Some have even done this. See #5. 6) you are taking about changing things that the majority of people don’t care a ton about for approx 0.004% of the wrestlers. That’s pretty selfish as a fan. See #5. 7) mma. There is clearly more upside financially for the wrestling community in mma with a folkstyle background vs free. The pool of wrestlers capable of making $ off of mma is vastly larger than people with world level medals in freestyle… so again you’re hurting a larger pool of athletes with your selfish fan based goals. See #5. why is 8 ) an emojo. With that said. Olympic and world level medals will not grow the sport. That is a fact. We ex-wrestlers don’t like it but it is a fact. We win and do extremely well on the world stage yearly. We win world and Olympic medals every single year. Little Johnny at 8 years old is not going to join and stick with wrestling if he sees Spencer Lee win a gold medal at the worlds. See #5. 9) your are projecting your selfish goals on a more popular sport. Feels like you are one of those parents who forces their kid to wrestle when they don’t want to. Just because you did. 10) given bo has so much sway on this board about about the hodge trophy. He thinks folkstyle is superior. That has to count for something around here. 11) it will reduce the traffic in this site. Thus reducing the ad revenue the mods are collecting. They should step in and declare their undying loyalty to folkstyle. in your best Mel Gibson braveheart voice: they can take our lives but they can never take our foooooooolllllllllllllkkkkkkkkkkkkkkssssssssttttttttyyyyyyllllllleeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!! Edited April 1 by Caveira
WrestlingRecords.com Posted April 1 Posted April 1 16 minutes ago, Caveira said: Why is changing our great sport worth going to something that: 1) it’s a demonstrable fact fans in the us prefer folkstyle. 2) its also a fact that the athletes prefer folkstyle. See #5. 3) the American public in general is not moved one way or the other if we do slightly better than we do today on the world stage. And we are pretty dominant on the world stage today. See #5. 4) you already have a freestyle season. It’s like you’re whining that you don’t have a season when you in fact have one. See #5. 5) if athletes prioritized Olympic medals, and thought folkstyle was hurting them they simply would do freestyle year round. No one is stopping them. Some have even done this. See #5. 6) you are taking about changing things that the majority of people don’t care a ton about for approx 0.004% of the wrestlers. That’s pretty selfish as a fan. See #5. 7) mma. There is clearly more upside financially for the wrestling community in mma with a folkstyle background vs free. The pool of wrestlers capable of making $ off of mma is vastly larger than people with world level medals in freestyle… so again you’re hurting a larger pool of athletes with your selfish fan based goals. See #5. why is 8 ) an emojo. With that said. Olympic and world level medals will not grow the sport. That is a fact. We ex-wrestlers don’t like it but it is a fact. We win and do extremely well on the world stage yearly. We win world and Olympic medals every single year. Little Johnny at 8 years old is not going to join and stick with wrestling if he sees Spencer Lee win a gold medal at the worlds. See #5. 9) your are projecting your selfish goals on a more popular sport. Feels like you are one of those parents who forces their kid to wrestle when they don’t want to. Just because you did. 10) given bo has so much sway on this board about about the hodge trophy. He thinks folkstyle is superior. That has to count for something around here. 11) it will reduce the traffic in this site. Thus reducing the ad revenue the mods are collecting. They should step in and declare their undying loyalty to folkstyle. in your best Mel Gibson braveheart voice: foooooooolllllllllllllkkkkkkkkkkkkkkssssssssttttttttyyyyyyllllllleeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!! I disagree with every single point. Using Bo Nickal has invalidated your entire argument. Freestyle is the best. I've said my piece.
Caveira Posted April 1 Posted April 1 (edited) 2 minutes ago, WrestlingRecords.com said: I disagree with every single point. Using Bo Nickal has invalidated your entire argument. Freestyle is the best. I've said my piece. Similar to your argument. We have a forum for freestyle. You can go there but you choose to stay here. Better sport and better forum. Problem is no one reads that form and the post volume is meh. give me a fact that disagrees with point #2. Who posted above that 90% less athletes participate in high school freestyle compared to folkstyle. Edited April 1 by Caveira
Caveira Posted April 1 Posted April 1 6 minutes ago, WrestlingRecords.com said: I disagree with every single point. Using Bo Nickal has invalidated your entire argument. Freestyle is the best. I've said my piece. Fair on the bo piece. I don’t like him I put that in as a joke 1
Caveira Posted April 1 Posted April 1 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Caveira said: Fair on the bo piece. I don’t like him I put that in as a joke You didn’t plop an argument for #2 bro. Edited April 1 by Caveira
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