What constitutes stalling on top?

[PSULou64]

After watching a ton of matches this season i'd really like some clarification on top stalling.  The NCAA clearly stated they would be more aggressive in calling it but for the life of me it seems to be arbitrarily called at best.

Can a claw ride be anything but a ride? Can hips over hips with no bar, half, etc.,  be anything but a ride? 

As you have watched this season what are your thoughts?

[JuanMogen]

I have no expectation that the brilliant minds of wrestling will have a good answer for you, but they’ll confidently post some kind of diarrhea anyway. 

[1032004]

There’s been some inconsistency in how it’s called like all stalling calls, but overall I do think the rule change has resulted in more action from the mat

[Nittany]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[IllegalFist2Back]

Good question.  It isnt often that you see it called.  It is too much of a judgement call.  I would like to see it called consistently.  

[Wrestleknownothing]

1 hour ago, JuanMogen said:

I have no expectation that the brilliant minds of wrestling will have a good answer for you, but they’ll confidently post some kind of diarrhea anyway. 

It's like you were staring in a mirror while you typed this. I can think of no one who posts as often as you who has less to say.

Maybe the twentieth time you call heavyweights fat guys who eat everything someone will laugh. Maybe the twenty first.

 

[Dogbone]

What I think is stalling on top is clearly not in NCAA.  As mentioned, it is not called consistently either.

 

[ionel]

If you are on top, winning the match and the bottom man can't get off bottom then you must be stalling cause you aren't giving the other guy a chance to beat you, thus the ref will give him a chance - stalling!  

[Offthemat]

How many guys have been hit for stalling for riding someone like Starocci or Brooks?

[manatree]

3 hours ago, PSULou64 said:

After watching a ton of matches this season i'd really like some clarification on top stalling. 

If it's a Hawkeye on top, it's wrestling. If it's anyone else on top, it's stalling. Clear enough?

[KLCarnegieTech_1969]

In the top position-stalling is when the top man is riding parallel to the hips and not trying to improve his position. If the top man is out to the side, perpendicular and working to break down or turn the bottom man, stalling should not be called.   It used to be the top man could just prevent the bottom man from scoring.  That is not the case any more.  The powers that be are trying to make the sport more exciting for the attention span-less viewers that cannot enjoy a 2-1 or 3-2 struggle.  Thus the burden seems to be more on the top man.  Refs are out of control trying to insert themselves in matches this year,  ensuring the pace is the match is always up tempo.  If I want to stall or work the edge then I will.   Has anybody noticed how much more refs are inserting themselves in matches, instructing the participants to improve their position, work to the center, get out of the fingers, keep it legal. etc. etc.  It's a hodgepodge of nothingness that sounds like a broken record.  I would love for a wrestler to tell a ref: Have you ever thought that it might not be that easy? Or just to shut the hell up.

Edited February 26 by KLCarnegieTech_1969

[Rassling]

An obvious ongoing lack of effort to work for back points imo.

[NM1965]

When I wrestled back in the Pleistocene a guy was expected to work towards back points if he was on top. I've noticed a lot of guys just riding these days and not working for points. That would've been called stalling back in my day. Back then we didn't have techfalls, or 4 point nearfalls, or 3 point takedowns either. 

[NM1965]

1 hour ago, KLCarnegieTech_1969 said:

In the top position-stalling is when the top man is riding parallel to the hips and not trying to improve his position. If the top man is out to the side, perpendicular and working to break down or turn the bottom man, stalling should not be called.   It used to be the top man could just prevent the bottom man from scoring.  That is not the case any more.  The powers that be are trying to make the sport more exciting for the attention span-less viewers that cannot enjoy a 2-1 or 3-2 struggle.  Thus the burden seems to be more on the top man.  Refs are out of control trying to insert themselves in matches this year,  ensuring the pace is the match is always up tempo.  If I want to stall or work the edge then I will.   Has anybody noticed how much more refs are inserting themselves in matches, instructing the participants to improve their position, work to the center, get out of the fingers, keep it legal. etc. etc.  It's a hodgepodge of nothingness that sounds like a broken record.  I would love for a wrestler to tell a ref: Have you ever thought that it might not be that easy? Or just to shut the hell up.

Refs have always installed themselves in matches. Hometown reffing is still a big thing in wrestling, and it was back in my day too. 

[KLCarnegieTech_1969]

15 minutes ago, NM1965 said:

Refs have always installed themselves in matches. Hometown reffing is still a big thing in wrestling, and it was back in my day too. 

Refs did not assert themselves in the 70s and 80s like they do now.  They do more now to justify their existence.  It isn't necessary to constantly be told where to wrestle on the mat, to keep it legal, to get out of the fingers and to work to improve.  Refs were there to make sure the wrestlers were safe and followed basic rules of engagement.  Now that they are mik'ed up they probably play to the listening audience.  

[Jim L]

Getting back points is so hard at the D1 level unless there is a large mismatch in ability.

In 90% of the matches there is not going to be a turn from the top. IMO, that is not because the top guy is not trying, he just knows it is not going to happen, so the best strategy is to ride, hope to get a riding time point or at least collect enough riding time so the the opponent does not get that point.  and at the same same time so enough effort that you don't get a stall call. In a fairly even match, the bottom wrestler is usually active that top guy spends all his effort just countering his stand ups etc. 

[KLCarnegieTech_1969]

6 hours ago, PSULou64 said:

After watching a ton of matches this season i'd really like some clarification on top stalling.  The NCAA clearly stated they would be more aggressive in calling it but for the life of me it seems to be arbitrarily called at best.

Can a claw ride be anything but a ride? Can hips over hips with no bar, half, etc.,  be anything but a ride? 

As you have watched this season what are your thoughts?

In most cases a claw ride, or a figure four and a power half are used to "break, incapacitate, or wear down the bottom man.  This, in my opinion is not stalling.  It's working to maintain an advantage over your opponent.  Parallel hips, not working to improve is stalling.  

[KLCarnegieTech_1969]

Just now, Jim L said:

Getting back points is so hard at the D1 level unless there is a large mismatch in ability.

In 90% of the matches there is not going to be a turn from the top. IMO, that is not because the top guy is not trying, he just knows it is not going to happen, so the best strategy is to ride, hope to get a riding time point or at least collect enough riding time so the the opponent does not get that point.  and at the same same time so enough effort that you don't get a stall call. In a fairly even match, the bottom wrestler is usually active that top guy spends all his effort just countering his stand ups etc. 

Nicely put!

[Major Kong]

Falling asleep with two legs in.

[Dogbone]

7 minutes ago, KLCarnegieTech_1969 said:

Refs did not assert themselves in the 70s and 80s like they do now.  They do more now to justify their existence.  It isn't necessary to constantly be told where to wrestle on the mat, to keep it legal, to get out of the fingers and to work to improve.  Refs were there to make sure the wrestlers were safe and followed basic rules of engagement.  Now that they are mik'ed up they probably play to the listening audience.  

I think you are hearing that more because Refs are mik'ed up.   Refs have been saying work to improve, keep it legal, etc. forever.  You just couldn't hear it as much before. 

[Dogbone]

2 minutes ago, KLCarnegieTech_1969 said:

In most cases a claw ride, or a figure four and a power half are used to "break, incapacitate, or wear down the bottom man.  This, in my opinion is not stalling.  It's working to maintain an advantage over your opponent.  Parallel hips, not working to improve is stalling.  

I don't see the different between figuring four the leg and staying parallel.  Neither is trying to turn or break a guy down and both could be said you are incapacitate or wearing a guy down, heck if you are parallel you at least have already broken the guy down.    Both are stalling in my opinion. 

[KLCarnegieTech_1969]

16 minutes ago, Jim L said:

Getting back points is so hard at the D1 level unless there is a large mismatch in ability.

In 90% of the matches there is not going to be a turn from the top. IMO, that is not because the top guy is not trying, he just knows it is not going to happen, so the best strategy is to ride, hope to get a riding time point or at least collect enough riding time so the the opponent does not get that point.  and at the same same time so enough effort that you don't get a stall call. In a fairly even match, the bottom wrestler is usually active that top guy spends all his effort just countering his stand ups etc. 

Nicely put!

[KLCarnegieTech_1969]

11 minutes ago, Dogbone said:

I don't see the different between figuring four the leg and staying parallel.  Neither is trying to turn or break a guy down and both could be said you are incapacitate or wearing a guy down, heck if you are parallel you at least have already broken the guy down.    Both are stalling in my opinion. 

 The absence of scoring is not stalling. 

[Mr. PeanutButter]

3 hours ago, manatree said:

If it's a Hawkeye on top, it's wrestling. If it's anyone else on top, it's stalling. Clear enough?

Yeah, right. Woods was called for stalling while working for a tilt. There were about 3 top stalling calls against Iowa wrestlers in the Nebraska match alone

[Dogbone]

55 minutes ago, KLCarnegieTech_1969 said:

 The absence of scoring is not stalling. 

That was your takeaway from my comments??