Iowa Coaching stuff - and PSU

[AgaveMaria]

This from Tarphawk on the Hawkeye board. Topic is "Is the Brands' era entering Zalesky level?"

Tale of the tape:
Gable (21 seasons): Avg NCAA pts/yr: 120.8. Avg NCAA placement/yr: 1.57. Avg champs/yr: 2.1
Zalesky (9 seasons): Avg NCAA pts/yr: 91.3. Avg NCAA placement/yr: 3.33. Avg champs/yr: 1.1
Brands (16 seasons): Avg NCAA pts/yr: 92.0. Avg NCAA placement/yr: 3.19. Avg champs/yr: 0.8

Zalesky won 4 team titles in 9 seasons. Brands has won 4 team titles in 16.
Zalesky coached 8 individuals to 10 NCAA titles in 9 seasons. Brands has coached 8 individuals to 13 titles in 16 seasons.

Brands is very good at being in the top 4, but less good at winning team titles or developing individual champs.

---------------------------

After Iowa Jim Zalesky wen to Oregon State and is now at University of Jamestown in North Dakota.

Zalesky did not make the Olympics. Tom Brands did a well as win a World Title.

That may have been part of the reason Brands replaced Zalesky.

If Brands is pushed out - where does he end up?

Really shows how hard it is to replace a legend. Dan Gable was a legend.

Cael Sanderson is a legend now. When he retires - who takes over and will they have the same success?

Cael does not seem to be tiring or getting old. Gable was visibly aging and replacement body parts factored into his retirement. Is Cael having those issues?

Gable entire persona was wrapped up in mat time with his wrestlers. I don't see that with Cael. Seems to have a more balanced approach and it is working for him.

No matter what we have greatness in coaching and are lucky to be able to watch.

 

[ionel]

8 minutes ago, AgaveMaria said:

Cael does not seem to be tiring or getting old. Gable was visibly aging .

If we acknowledge that every time a coach throws a fit matside (see Gable/Smith) it ages them more.  Then compare Sanderson to Gable/Smith and retirement age.  We could then project Cael could coach till he is 100.  Its whats in his mind and his approach that makes him so successful.  Now sure he might not be as successful in fun time dodgeball but maybe post 65 he'll switch fun time to pickleball.

[Dogbone]

I don't think stomping your feet or "throwing a fit" matside ages anyone, especially high level matches.  So we don't acknowledge that.   Gable's body didn't breakdown because of his actions during duals.

Brands isn't getting pushed out.  He still runs the 2nd best program in the country.  That was not the case for Zelesky who also didn't have a dynasty like PSU to go up against.   He took over after Iowa set the scoring record and 3 of his titles were his first 3 seasons after Gable left. 

Never follow a legend.  There is a reason Alabama had to settle for their 4th or 5th guy before hiring Saban's replacement.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

Just now, Dogbone said:

I don't think stomping your feet or "throwing a fit" matside ages anyone, especially high level matches.  So we don't acknowledge that.   Gable's body didn't breakdown because of his actions during duals.

Brands isn't getting pushed out.  He still runs the 2nd best program in the country.  That was not the case for Zelesky who also didn't have a dynasty like PSU to go up against.   He took over after Iowa set the scoring record and 3 of his titles were his first 3 seasons after Gable left. 

Never follow a legend.  There is a reason Alabama had to settle for their 4th or 5th guy before hiring Saban's replacement.

Gable is on record saying he pretty much felt like he was dying during and after Tom Ryan vs. Pat Smith final.  That may well age you.

[ionel]

6 minutes ago, Dogbone said:

I don't think stomping your feet or "throwing a fit" matside ages anyone, especially high level matches.  So we don't acknowledge that.   Gable's body didn't breakdown because of his actions during duals.

Brands isn't getting pushed out.  He still runs the 2nd best program in the country.  That was not the case for Zelesky who also didn't have a dynasty like PSU to go up against.   He took over after Iowa set the scoring record and 3 of his titles were his first 3 seasons after Gable left. 

Never follow a legend.  There is a reason Alabama had to settle for their 4th or 5th guy before hiring Saban's replacement.

You think stress doesn't age one?  Do you think the Ferrari fiasco didn't age John an extra 10 years?  

Does Cael ever look stressed? 

[Wrestleknownothing]

35 minutes ago, AgaveMaria said:

This from Tarphawk on the Hawkeye board. Topic is "Is the Brands' era entering Zalesky level?"

Tale of the tape:
Gable (21 seasons): Avg NCAA pts/yr: 120.8. Avg NCAA placement/yr: 1.57. Avg champs/yr: 2.1
Zalesky (9 seasons): Avg NCAA pts/yr: 91.3. Avg NCAA placement/yr: 3.33. Avg champs/yr: 1.1
Brands (16 seasons): Avg NCAA pts/yr: 92.0. Avg NCAA placement/yr: 3.19. Avg champs/yr: 0.8

Zalesky won 4 team titles in 9 seasons. Brands has won 4 team titles in 16.
Zalesky coached 8 individuals to 10 NCAA titles in 9 seasons. Brands has coached 8 individuals to 13 titles in 16 seasons.

Brands is very good at being in the top 4, but less good at winning team titles or developing individual champs.

---------------------------

After Iowa Jim Zalesky wen to Oregon State and is now at University of Jamestown in North Dakota.

Zalesky did not make the Olympics. Tom Brands did a well as win a World Title.

That may have been part of the reason Brands replaced Zalesky.

If Brands is pushed out - where does he end up?

Really shows how hard it is to replace a legend. Dan Gable was a legend.

Cael Sanderson is a legend now. When he retires - who takes over and will they have the same success?

Cael does not seem to be tiring or getting old. Gable was visibly aging and replacement body parts factored into his retirement. Is Cael having those issues?

Gable entire persona was wrapped up in mat time with his wrestlers. I don't see that with Cael. Seems to have a more balanced approach and it is working for him.

No matter what we have greatness in coaching and are lucky to be able to watch.

 

Sanderson is very committed to delegating. It makes it easier to coach for a long time and identify successors.

[JuanMogen]

10 minutes ago, ionel said:

Does Cael ever look stressed? 

He missed Sunday church a few weeks ago and had that look in his eye like the Lord Almighty was about to smite him. He later repented and was all good, but boy was it tense for a while.

[TylerDurden]

12 minutes ago, AgaveMaria said:

This from Tarphawk on the Hawkeye board. Topic is "Is the Brands' era entering Zalesky level?"

Tale of the tape:
Gable (21 seasons): Avg NCAA pts/yr: 120.8. Avg NCAA placement/yr: 1.57. Avg champs/yr: 2.1
Zalesky (9 seasons): Avg NCAA pts/yr: 91.3. Avg NCAA placement/yr: 3.33. Avg champs/yr: 1.1
Brands (16 seasons): Avg NCAA pts/yr: 92.0. Avg NCAA placement/yr: 3.19. Avg champs/yr: 0.8

Zalesky won 4 team titles in 9 seasons. Brands has won 4 team titles in 16.
Zalesky coached 8 individuals to 10 NCAA titles in 9 seasons. Brands has coached 8 individuals to 13 titles in 16 seasons.

Brands is very good at being in the top 4, but less good at winning team titles or developing individual champs.

---------------------------

After Iowa Jim Zalesky wen to Oregon State and is now at University of Jamestown in North Dakota.

Zalesky did not make the Olympics. Tom Brands did a well as win a World Title.

That may have been part of the reason Brands replaced Zalesky.

If Brands is pushed out - where does he end up?

Really shows how hard it is to replace a legend. Dan Gable was a legend.

Cael Sanderson is a legend now. When he retires - who takes over and will they have the same success?

Cael does not seem to be tiring or getting old. Gable was visibly aging and replacement body parts factored into his retirement. Is Cael having those issues?

Gable entire persona was wrapped up in mat time with his wrestlers. I don't see that with Cael. Seems to have a more balanced approach and it is working for him.

No matter what we have greatness in coaching and are lucky to be able to watch.

 

There are 46 years worth of results in this comparison, which means it's hardly a comparison at all. The landscape is drastically different from when Gable was the head coach. It's much harder to build and sustain a program now. Much harder. 

Even so, the Brands/Zalesky comparison presents a pretty skewed version of reality, lacking any context. Sure the average NCAA finish is similar - even with Brands having seven more seasons, which is an advantage to Brands - but Zalesky's last five NCAA finishes were: 4-8-2-7-4 and finished 4 and 6th place in the B1G his last two years.

We also should remember that Zalesky took over a program that had won six of the previous seven national titles. Brands took over for Zalesky and, after one season, won three straight nattys. 

The Cael factor is real as well. Neither Gable or Zalesky faced an opponent as formidable as Penn State has been over the past dozen years or so. He's been at PSU for all but three years that Brands has been at Iowa. 

Brands isn't as good as Cael, but his results are better than everyone else coaching right now. But he's also not Zalesky and it's not that close. 

I get that Iowa fans feel like they have some sort of birthright to win the NCAA title, but this stuff is silly. If anyone on this board is riding the Fire Brands train, who are you suggesting replace him that can do better? 

[Dogbone]

12 minutes ago, ionel said:

You think stress doesn't age one?  Do you think the Ferrari fiasco didn't age John an extra 10 years?  

Does Cael ever look stressed? 

I don't think stress caused Gable to need a new hip.  

I also never said stress doesn't age one.  I only disagreed with the claim that "every time a coach throws a fit matside (see Gable/Smith) it ages them more" 

 

 

[ionel]

20 minutes ago, Dogbone said:

I don't think stress caused Gable to need a new hip.  

I also never said stress doesn't age one.  I only disagreed with the claim that "every time a coach throws a fit matside (see Gable/Smith) it ages them more" 

 

 

Curious why did a new hip cause him to quit coaching?  

[Pinnacle]

Zalesky benefitted from the Gable Dynasty. Brands had to follow Zalesky. That point goes in Brands favor. 

Brands had to coach against the superior Sanderson, but Zalesky had to coach against the superior Oklahoma State. In each case the superior coach was better than the Iowa coach. 

One added point. When Brands won three straight at the front end of his Iowa tenure, in that moment in time Brands was viewed by almost everyone not at Iowa State or Penn State as the superior coach. Sanderson walked into Penn State and just took that mantle from him with a force previously not seen since Gable landed at Iowa. Turns out Sanderson is built to coach pretty much as he was built to wrestle. That man has staying power. Nothing bothers him. 

Iowa fans are pretty much in for a long wait until Cael Sanderson retires, and maybe even then he can put the right guy into the job to succeed him and keep it going. 

[ionel]

1 minute ago, Pinnacle said:

Zalesky benefitted from the Gable Dynasty. Brands had to follow Zalesky. That point goes in Brands favor. 

Brands had to coach against the superior Sanderson, but Zalesky had to coach against the superior Oklahoma State. In each case the superior coach was better than the Iowa coach. 

One added point. When Brands won three straight at the front end of his Iowa tenure, in that moment in time Brands was viewed by almost everyone not at Iowa State or Penn State as the superior coach. Sanderson walked into Penn State and just took that mantle from him with a force previously not seen since Gable landed at Iowa. Turns out Sanderson is built to coach pretty much as he was built to wrestle. That man has staying power. Nothing bothers him. 

Iowa fans are pretty much in for a long wait until Cael Sanderson retires, and maybe even then he can put the right guy into the job to succeed him and keep it going. 

Z benefited first few years from what Gable recruited and built.  Brands benefited first few years from double recruiting class (Vtech, similar Cael).  Compare after the first few year advantage.  

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

5 minutes ago, Pinnacle said:

Zalesky benefitted from the Gable Dynasty. Brands had to follow Zalesky. That point goes in Brands favor. 

Brands had to coach against the superior Sanderson, but Zalesky had to coach against the superior Oklahoma State. In each case the superior coach was better than the Iowa coach. 

One added point. When Brands won three straight at the front end of his Iowa tenure, in that moment in time Brands was viewed by almost everyone not at Iowa State or Penn State as the superior coach. Sanderson walked into Penn State and just took that mantle from him with a force previously not seen since Gable landed at Iowa. Turns out Sanderson is built to coach pretty much as he was built to wrestle. That man has staying power. Nothing bothers him. 

Iowa fans are pretty much in for a long wait until Cael Sanderson retires, and maybe even then he can put the right guy into the job to succeed him and keep it going. 

The ref in the Cox/Taylor matches disagrees with this statement, but only after dodging challenge bricks and chairs.