One Idea after Conference Shifting

[bracketbuster]

I can't take much credit for this as @Jason Bryant was a full year ahead of me and did a lot of the leg work but obviously Arizona State going to the Big 12 is a big move so I was thinking about how conferences may work to help the west. I had also heard a rumor that the Ivies are thinking of forming their own qualifying conference tournament separate from the EIWAs earlier this summer so I split the EIWA.

All teams are full members of these conferences unless otherwise noted. Just did this for fun. This proposal would add two conference championships but if the Ivies stayed with the SoCon and we combined the last two conferences under the SoCon, there would continue to be seven qualifying tournaments. I also wasn't sure when Bellarmine, Lindenwood, and Queens become fully eligible and would count towards the six team minimum needed for an AQ.

ACC (6)
Duke
NC State
North Carolina
Pittsburgh
Virginia
Virginia Tech

Big Ten (14)
Illinois
Indiana
Iowa
Maryland
Michigan
Michigan State
Minnesota
Nebraska
Northwestern
Ohio State
Penn State
Purdue
Rutgers
Wisconsin

Big 12 (9)
Arizona State
Iowa State
Oklahoma State
West Virginia
Missouri (SEC)
Oklahoma (SEC)
North Dakota State (Missouri Valley)
Northern Iowa (Missouri Valley)
South Dakota State (Missouri Valley)

EIWA (11)
American (Patriot)
Army West Point (Patriot)
Bucknell (Patriot)
Lehigh (Patriot)
Navy (Patriot)
Franklin & Marshall (Centennial)
Binghamton (America East)
Drexel (CAA)
Hofstra (CAA)
LIU (Northeast)
Sacred Heart (Northeast)

Ivy (6)
Brown
Columbia
Cornell
Harvard
Pennsylvania
Princeton

MAC (11)
Buffalo
Central Michigan
Kent State
Northern Illinois
Ohio
Cleveland State (Horizon)
Bloomsburg (PSAC)
Clarion (PSAC)
Edinboro (PSAC)
Lock Haven (PSAC)
Rider (MAAC)

Western Conference (9)
Northern Colorado (Big Sky) - would leave Big 12
Cal Poly (Big West)
Oregon State (PAC 12)
Stanford (PAC 12)
Cal Baptist (WAC)
CSU Bakersfield (WAC)
Utah Valley (WAC) - Would leave Big 12
Air Force (Mountain West - Would leave Big 12
Wyoming (Mountain West) - Would leave Big 12

SoCon (7)
Chattanooga
The Citadel
VMI
George Mason (Atlantic 10) - leave MAC but seems to fit geography and they are in same primary conference as Davidson
Davidson (Atlantic 10)
Appalachian State (Sun Belt)
Morgan State (MEAC) - new program, would have minimum six before Morgan State as well

Atlantic Sun/Big South/Ohio Valley (8)
Bellarmine (ASUN)
Queens (ASUN)
Campbell (Big South)
Gardner-Webb (Big South)
Presbyterian (Big South)
Lindenwood (Ohio Valley)
Little Rock (Ohio Valley)
Southern Illinois Edwardsville (Ohio Valley)

[CoachC]

I don't like it as a SoCon fan. Smaller programs, with smaller budgets which would be hard on travel cost. For example, App State vs Campbell is a great rivalry, and has a packed gym that anyone would love to have, and they wouldn't be in the same conference??? Davidson is like 30 minutes from Queens and they wouldn't be in the same conference? 

[Idaho]

1 hour ago, bracketbuster said:

I can't take much credit for this as @Jason Bryant was a full year ahead of me and did a lot of the leg work but obviously Arizona State going to the Big 12 is a big move so I was thinking about how conferences may work to help the west. I had also heard a rumor that the Ivies are thinking of forming their own qualifying conference tournament separate from the EIWAs earlier this summer so I split the EIWA.

All teams are full members of these conferences unless otherwise noted. Just did this for fun. This proposal would add two conference championships but if the Ivies stayed with the SoCon and we combined the last two conferences under the SoCon, there would continue to be seven qualifying tournaments. I also wasn't sure when Bellarmine, Lindenwood, and Queens become fully eligible and would count towards the six team minimum needed for an AQ.

ACC (6)
Duke
NC State
North Carolina
Pittsburgh
Virginia
Virginia Tech

Big Ten (14)
Illinois
Indiana
Iowa
Maryland
Michigan
Michigan State
Minnesota
Nebraska
Northwestern
Ohio State
Penn State
Purdue
Rutgers
Wisconsin

Big 12 (9)
Arizona State
Iowa State
Oklahoma State
West Virginia
Missouri (SEC)
Oklahoma (SEC)
North Dakota State (Missouri Valley)
Northern Iowa (Missouri Valley)
South Dakota State (Missouri Valley)

EIWA (11)
American (Patriot)
Army West Point (Patriot)
Bucknell (Patriot)
Lehigh (Patriot)
Navy (Patriot)
Franklin & Marshall (Centennial)
Binghamton (America East)
Drexel (CAA)
Hofstra (CAA)
LIU (Northeast)
Sacred Heart (Northeast)

Ivy (6)
Brown
Columbia
Cornell
Harvard
Pennsylvania
Princeton

MAC (11)
Buffalo
Central Michigan
Kent State
Northern Illinois
Ohio
Cleveland State (Horizon)
Bloomsburg (PSAC)
Clarion (PSAC)
Edinboro (PSAC)
Lock Haven (PSAC)
Rider (MAAC)

Western Conference (9)
Northern Colorado (Big Sky) - would leave Big 12
Cal Poly (Big West)
Oregon State (PAC 12)
Stanford (PAC 12)
Cal Baptist (WAC)
CSU Bakersfield (WAC)
Utah Valley (WAC) - Would leave Big 12
Air Force (Mountain West - Would leave Big 12
Wyoming (Mountain West) - Would leave Big 12

SoCon (7)
Chattanooga
The Citadel
VMI
George Mason (Atlantic 10) - leave MAC but seems to fit geography and they are in same primary conference as Davidson
Davidson (Atlantic 10)
Appalachian State (Sun Belt)
Morgan State (MEAC) - new program, would have minimum six before Morgan State as well

Atlantic Sun/Big South/Ohio Valley (8)
Bellarmine (ASUN)
Queens (ASUN)
Campbell (Big South)
Gardner-Webb (Big South)
Presbyterian (Big South)
Lindenwood (Ohio Valley)
Little Rock (Ohio Valley)
Southern Illinois Edwardsville (Ohio Valley)

MW, WAC and N. Col won't leave the Big 12 for another conference. The only way that happens is if the Pac-12 and said conferences merge into their own conference. The schools would then be members of that new conference and would have to compete in the new conference as members.  The Pac 12 is in discussion with the MW right now in the formation of a new conference. One question, is will the Pac 12 name swallow up the MW teams or vice versa. There are several scenarios at play. In the ultimate wrestling world, your scenario above plays out, but it won't unless those school are formed into a new conference. 

[boconnell]

How would this help the west?

[bracketbuster]

5 hours ago, CoachC said:

I don't like it as a SoCon fan. Smaller programs, with smaller budgets which would be hard on travel cost. For example, App State vs Campbell is a great rivalry, and has a packed gym that anyone would love to have, and they wouldn't be in the same conference??? Davidson is like 30 minutes from Queens and they wouldn't be in the same conference? 

This was just me throwing something out there for discussion. App State and Campbell did stick out to me but a conference that gets very few qualifiers as it is I doubt would want 13+ schools all competing for just 1-2 spots per weight. That leaves a lot of teams without qualifiers annually I would imagine as those two schools take the lion's share. For what it is worth, Queens and Davidson are not in the same conference for any sport I don't believe.

 

2 hours ago, boconnell said:

How would this help the west?

After a grace period, Oregon State, Stanford, Cal Poly, Cal Baptist, CSU Bakersfield do not have a conference that would qualify them to go to NCAAs. I would guess they all have to try their hand at the at-large pool. Air Force makes the most sense geographically to join the west from the Big 12 and that could potentially pull in Wyoming from the Mountain West. Northern Colorado and Air Force would be about the same geographically either way. They would probably more competitive in the West. Again these are just ideas and I doubt anybody who makes these decisions even cares that I wrote this.

[Jason Bryant]

I’ll be doing an updated show on this as soon as I get a confirmation on two things - the moratorium on creating single sport conferences is over and the CAA interest in sponsoring wrestling again.

I shift my structure every time there is a conference move and now it’s time to update.

[Idaho]

2 hours ago, boconnell said:

How would this help the west?

It saves the 4 remaining teams from being conference-less.  A merger of some sort with the MW and maybe teams from the WAC isn’t ideal but might be necessary.  Depending on the teams they may have enough for their own wrestling conference. Any team not part of the merger Is not going to just leave the Big 12 to be part of this but teams making an official merger would. 
On another note the ACC merging with the Pac 12 is starting to pick up a little steam.  It would give the ACC the opportunity to renegotiate their terrible media deal. 

[TitleIX is ripe for reform]

It would be nice to get to see the Western conference get to invite Tarleton State's possible new D1 wrestling team (in Texas) to join:

https://TarletonSports.com/   

Meanwhile, as for the ACC's merging with the PAC 12...   The 3 hour time difference and considerable flight distance are not something the ACC members seem likely to lunge after.   I'm not conveying insiders' opinions, admittedly, just opining myself after following the ACC for at least 4 decades.   Several of its members (especially Ga. Tech., UNC, U.Va. and Duke) take academics seriously.   

[boconnell]

20 hours ago, Idaho said:

It saves the 4 remaining teams from being conference-less.  A merger of some sort with the MW and maybe teams from the WAC isn’t ideal but might be necessary.  Depending on the teams they may have enough for their own wrestling conference. Any team not part of the merger Is not going to just leave the Big 12 to be part of this but teams making an official merger would. 
On another note the ACC merging with the Pac 12 is starting to pick up a little steam.  It would give the ACC the opportunity to renegotiate their terrible media deal. 

It also takes Northern Colorado, Air Force, Wyoming, and Utah Valley out of the Big 12 and makes it much harder for those schools to get guys to Nationals.  I think that makes it a net negative.  It would be better just to find a home for the schools that need one without pulling teams out of places that are working.

[SetonHallPirate]

1 hour ago, boconnell said:

It also takes Northern Colorado, Air Force, Wyoming, and Utah Valley out of the Big 12 and makes it much harder for those schools to get guys to Nationals.  I think that makes it a net negative.  It would be better just to find a home for the schools that need one without pulling teams out of places that are working.

More allocated spots doesn't mean it's easier to make it to nationals. On the other hand, more allocated spots means it's a tougher road to get to nationals. (it's really meant to be neutral in that regard...as in, you aren't benefiting more or less by going to another conference) The only caveat to that is, if a conference has nobody within threshold, they'll get an automatic bid to nationals anyway.

(as we're reminded every year at the Convention, only the conference champion receives an automatic bid. The rest of the bids given to each conference prior to the conference championships are allocated spots)

[Idaho]

I believe Northern Colorado is in the Big Sky conference … yes it still exists. I doubt they are being courted for a new conference as a school. 

[Lipdrag]

19 hours ago, TitleIX is ripe for reform said:

Several of its members (especially Ga. Tech., UNC, U.Va. and Duke) take academics seriously.   

it is cute that you think universities have anything to do with academics any longer.  UNC had to be forced by the Supreme Court to take academics seriously in its admissions policy.  Duke?!?  The professors and medical staff at Duke "university" have serially beclowned themselves with SJW hoaxes over lacrosse dancers and denying surgery to children due to vaccine naziism.  It would take less than 30 seconds to find rampant seriously non-academic policy or practice or utterance from the Wahoos or GaTech trying to chickify their engineers by lowering the standards and grade inflation but I respect my time too much to do so.

" . . . take academics seriously"  Cute.  Tinkerbell and the Tooth Fairy have some money for your next molar, IX Ripe.

 

P.S.  I agree with your handle:  Title IX is and always has been over-ripe and has always had the stenches of being developed by fermented and addled brains.

[TitleIX is ripe for reform]

You're raised some legitimate points.   

[Tripnsweep]

On 8/6/2023 at 12:25 PM, bracketbuster said:

I can't take much credit for this as @Jason Bryant was a full year ahead of me and did a lot of the leg work but obviously Arizona State going to the Big 12 is a big move so I was thinking about how conferences may work to help the west. I had also heard a rumor that the Ivies are thinking of forming their own qualifying conference tournament separate from the EIWAs earlier this summer so I split the EIWA.

All teams are full members of these conferences unless otherwise noted. Just did this for fun. This proposal would add two conference championships but if the Ivies stayed with the SoCon and we combined the last two conferences under the SoCon, there would continue to be seven qualifying tournaments. I also wasn't sure when Bellarmine, Lindenwood, and Queens become fully eligible and would count towards the six team minimum needed for an AQ.

ACC (6)
Duke
NC State
North Carolina
Pittsburgh
Virginia
Virginia Tech

Big Ten (14)
Illinois
Indiana
Iowa
Maryland
Michigan
Michigan State
Minnesota
Nebraska
Northwestern
Ohio State
Penn State
Purdue
Rutgers
Wisconsin

Big 12 (9)
Arizona State
Iowa State
Oklahoma State
West Virginia
Missouri (SEC)
Oklahoma (SEC)
North Dakota State (Missouri Valley)
Northern Iowa (Missouri Valley)
South Dakota State (Missouri Valley)

EIWA (11)
American (Patriot)
Army West Point (Patriot)
Bucknell (Patriot)
Lehigh (Patriot)
Navy (Patriot)
Franklin & Marshall (Centennial)
Binghamton (America East)
Drexel (CAA)
Hofstra (CAA)
LIU (Northeast)
Sacred Heart (Northeast)

Ivy (6)
Brown
Columbia
Cornell
Harvard
Pennsylvania
Princeton

MAC (11)
Buffalo
Central Michigan
Kent State
Northern Illinois
Ohio
Cleveland State (Horizon)
Bloomsburg (PSAC)
Clarion (PSAC)
Edinboro (PSAC)
Lock Haven (PSAC)
Rider (MAAC)

Western Conference (9)
Northern Colorado (Big Sky) - would leave Big 12
Cal Poly (Big West)
Oregon State (PAC 12)
Stanford (PAC 12)
Cal Baptist (WAC)
CSU Bakersfield (WAC)
Utah Valley (WAC) - Would leave Big 12
Air Force (Mountain West - Would leave Big 12
Wyoming (Mountain West) - Would leave Big 12

SoCon (7)
Chattanooga
The Citadel
VMI
George Mason (Atlantic 10) - leave MAC but seems to fit geography and they are in same primary conference as Davidson
Davidson (Atlantic 10)
Appalachian State (Sun Belt)
Morgan State (MEAC) - new program, would have minimum six before Morgan State as well

Atlantic Sun/Big South/Ohio Valley (8)
Bellarmine (ASUN)
Queens (ASUN)
Campbell (Big South)
Gardner-Webb (Big South)
Presbyterian (Big South)
Lindenwood (Ohio Valley)
Little Rock (Ohio Valley)
Southern Illinois Edwardsville (Ohio Valley)

I like it. Very reasonable and well thought out. My only beef is I wish Yale and Dartmouth would add wrestling. Well maybe not Yale. 

[SetonHallPirate]

5 minutes ago, Tripnsweep said:

I like it. Very reasonable and well thought out. My only beef is I wish Yale and Dartmouth would add wrestling. Well maybe not Yale. 

If the Ivies ever do split from the rest of the EIWA, I wouldn’t be surprised if Dartmouth and Yale instantly started paying attention…

[NewYooper]

22 hours ago, Idaho said:

I believe Northern Colorado is in the Big Sky conference … yes it still exists. I doubt they are being courted for a new conference as a school. 

Northern Colorado has wrestled in the Big 12 (along with SDSU, NDSU, UVU, Air Force and Wyoming) since the Western Wrestling Conference merged with the Big 12 for wrestling.  Other schools were subsequently added.

[Tripnsweep]

48 minutes ago, SetonHallPirate said:

If the Ivies ever do split from the rest of the EIWA, I wouldn’t be surprised if Dartmouth and Yale instantly started paying attention…

If they did add wrestling again it would just be one more thing Harvard beats them in. 

[Jason Bryant]

Today’s Short Time on the subject

SHORT TIME PODCAST: Tackling realignment from the wrestling perspective

[Idaho]

16 hours ago, NewYooper said:

Northern Colorado has wrestled in the Big 12 (along with SDSU, NDSU, UVU, Air Force and Wyoming) since the Western Wrestling Conference merged with the Big 12 for wrestling.  Other schools were subsequently added.

Yes, but that's not what I am talking about.  Their school as a whole is in the Big Sky conference while wrestling competes in the B12. The context is teams moving to a new conference to form a new wrestling conference within that new conference. A new conference would not want N. Colorado as a whole school playing all sports along side Oregon State, Stanford, etc.  They would definitely be staying in the B12 for wrestling. 

[NewYooper]

3 hours ago, Idaho said:

Yes, but that's not what I am talking about.  Their school as a whole is in the Big Sky conference while wrestling competes in the B12. The context is teams moving to a new conference to form a new wrestling conference within that new conference. A new conference would not want N. Colorado as a whole school playing all sports along side Oregon State, Stanford, etc.  They would definitely be staying in the B12 for wrestling. 

If the new conference doesn't sponsor wrestling, why would they be upset or not want N. Colorado because it wrestles in the Big 12?  Boise St. (at one time was in the Mountain West and wrestled in the PAC-X (where X sadly is now smaller than it used to be; and where sadly, Boise St. no longer wrestles).  UVU is in the WAC and wrestles in the Big 12.  Forming a new "conference" within an existing conference is a way of life today.  Just look at Big 12 Women's rowing which has Alabama and Tennessee in the conference.  In the big picture, for many of these conferences, wrestling and rowing really don't matter.  They may matter to us, but in general...  The ADs have figured this out and and have found innovative ways to keep particular teams in a conference where they can get the necessary competition.

[Idaho]

2 hours ago, NewYooper said:

1. If the new conference doesn't sponsor wrestling, why would they be upset or not want N. Colorado because it wrestles in the Big 12?  2. Boise St. (at one time was in the Mountain West and wrestled in the PAC-X (where X sadly is now smaller than it used to be; and where sadly, Boise St. no longer wrestles).  UVU is in the WAC and wrestles in the Big 12.  Forming a new "conference" within an existing conference is a way of life today.  Just look at Big 12 Women's rowing which has Alabama and Tennessee in the conference.  In the big picture, for many of these conferences, wrestling and rowing really don't matter.  They may matter to us, but in general...  The ADs have figured this out and and have found innovative ways to keep particular teams in a conference where they can get the necessary competition.

1. No, nothing was ever said about that. A  new conference featuring left over Pac schools and the MW or the best teams from the MW would not want N. Colorado because they are in the Big Sky and would not bring anything to the conference overall. Sorry if you're a UNC fan, but as a whole school, including athletics as a whole, they are not up there with the likes of Oregon State, Stanford, Cal, WSU, SDSU, Boise St. etc. Those schools would want more legitimacy to a conference. . From a wrestling standpoint, I don't think UNC would want to do it anyway. They are in a good spot wrestling in the B12. 

2. Very well aware since I have lived most of my life in the Treasure Valley and have even helped in events to bring back BSU wrestling. It would be great if they did. 

3. IF there is a new conference to be made, it is possible they could have the schools in the conference to have their own wrestling conference. If the Pac schools (Oregon State and Stanford) are part of a new conference with the MW (Wyoming and Air Force), and Bakersfield, Poly and Little Rock tag along, there will be enough teams to create a wrestling conference because they would have enough member teams. Even if Little Rock left, which would be good for them to be on the East coast, they would still have enough. Would WAC teams follow to a new conference? Maybe the new to come Tarleton team...but Utah Valley and Cal Baptist are already in the Big 12. I doubt they would switch to a newly formed MW/PAC conference unless they wanted to be more competitive within the conference itself instead of being at the bottom of the B12. 

4. Even if the Pac 12 school left overs did form a new conference or combine with the MW, there is still the chance they would not do their own conference for wrestling, even though they would have enough schools. They may all want to go to the B12 if they are let in. In the Zeke Jones interview he mentions bringing all the Pac 12 wrestling schools to the Big 12. He didn't say it would happen but he sounded like he was not opposed to it. If not, he said everyone should help. in ensuring they get to a conference. 

[bracketbuster]

On 8/8/2023 at 8:39 PM, Jason Bryant said:

Today’s Short Time on the subject

SHORT TIME PODCAST: Tackling realignment from the wrestling perspective

Awesome stuff.

ACC, Big 10, Ivy, EIWA, MAC, CAA all sound pretty straightforward to me. The one thing that might change is based on the Rob Koll interview today he seemed to think Stanford to the ACC was a matter of time but right now ACC does 1 conference dual per weekend so they might have to work on that scheduling. Wrestling scheduling is obviously not going to stop that move however.

Big 12/MPSF

I agree with your point about schools qualifying spots vs. conferences. You alluded to coaches thinking about their programs vs. the sport and Rob Koll I felt contradicted himself if I heard him correctly. He said he wanted to go the ACC for its recruiting advantages but then said a couple minutes later that conferences are hardly ever talked about on recruiting trips. So when asked the question, conference probably doesn't affect recruiting but the first thing that popped into his head was how much the ACC would help recruiting. I am not sure how you clear that mental hurdle and I am just using him as an example because I am sure he is not the only one who thinks like this. I bring that up when we go back to talking about teams who would be moving out of the Big 12. Does that really hurt that program (Northern Iowa, Northern Colorado, etc.) and how do you convince the coaches if it does not in fact actually hurt the program.

The other thought was is Oregon State goes to the Mountain West, would they join the MPSF? If that happened, that would be a six-team big 12 of ASU, Iowa State, Oklahoma State, West Virginia, Missouri, Oklahoma.

SoOVC/ASUN

I think the geography and conferences makes sense best the way you presented it. The only issue I see is the ASUN has seven schools with Bellarmine, Queens, and Morgan State. Depending on when those schools become championship eligible, that might not meet the AQ threshold. Campbell seems like the obvious answer but I didn't realize until watching your show that they are in the CAA as their primary conference.

Loved the thoughts though. Probably much more thought out than my original.

[Jason Bryant]

Stanford to the ACC would impact bids minimally. I think you'd take  I'll add that up when I get some time. We're also looking at the potential from 24-25, so I believe Bellarmine is eligible by then (I'd have to triple check), I don't believe Queens would be eligible by then. That may be their last transitional year. It's another reason why I put a minimum of 7 in the newer ones, except the Ivy (unaffected by realignment) and the EIWA ... which could still catch a stray as an affiliate from the CAA or somewhere else. 

 

[SetonHallPirate]

54 minutes ago, Jason Bryant said:

Stanford to the ACC would impact bids minimally. I think you'd take  I'll add that up when I get some time. We're also looking at the potential from 24-25, so I believe Bellarmine is eligible by then (I'd have to triple check), I don't believe Queens would be eligible by then. That may be their last transitional year. It's another reason why I put a minimum of 7 in the newer ones, except the Ivy (unaffected by realignment) and the EIWA ... which could still catch a stray as an affiliate from the CAA or somewhere else. 

 

Yes...Bellarmine is in its last year of transition this coming year. Queens (and Lindenwood) won't be eligible until 2026-27.