Cornell with 2 4xers Before PSU/Iowa have 1

[D3UC157]

1 minute ago, 1032004 said:

 

C'mon your last paragraph in particular is just silly.   You're not honestly comparing catching a line drive while 2 guys happen to be on base to winning 20 matches at the NCAA tournament over a 4 year period, right?  Please tell me you're joking.

 

Also define "experience."   College experience maybe, but overall wrestling experience is generally higher at the lower weights, and the middle weights tend to have the greatest number of overall participants.

I will give you it's probably more coincidence that Cornell got 2 4x'ers, but you seem to be diminishing the feat in general.   It's incredibly hard as seen by the few guys that have done it, and several that were assumed to be able to (Gable, Lee, etc) but couldn't get it done.  Congrats to Yianni, I feel bad that he seemed to be overshadowed this season by Lee "because of Lee's dominance," but Yianni can be argued as #2 on the list behind Cael given he only had 2 losses.

 Yes, the triple play is not one-to-one comparison of course. More an example that rare isn’t always all skill based or can involve luck.

Experience, yes college experience. There are plenty of lightweights who have wrestled 12+ years by the time they start college. But having wrestled at 6 years old probably doesn’t help as much as having a year(s) in college.

 

Being a four timer is an incredible feat but there is definitely a percentage of circumstance at play. 

Gable wrestled during the era of no freshman varsity, he couldn’t get 4. He’s a two-timer (1-1-2). So when in history you wrestled matters. Then you only got Three now COVID in play you get five.

I do not disagree at all that it’s impressive to win all 20-ish NCAA bouts and be a four-timer.
 

 

[Pinnacle]

One thing about being an Ivy wrestler is the comparitively weak schedule. The Big10 especially is a grind from start to finish. 

[jmoney]

8 hours ago, SocraTease said:

The 4-timer stuff is so compromised and fetishized.   

It doesn't account for the level of competition and other variables.

A 3-timer like Nolf (who only barely lost in the finals to an NCAA champ his freshman year whom he earlier pinned)  is actually better than a 4-timer like Yianni.  And he was absolutely more dominant than Yianni or Dake.

Steiber won some finals he arguably should not have given the calls.  

Luck, draws, and other factors play so much of a role. 

Most people are only capable of thinking in terms of simple causality.   The world doesn't work that way. 

It's a mental blindness of the worst kind and attributable in large part to evolutionary psychology.

Dunning-Kruger is all around us. 

[1032004]

41 minutes ago, D3UC157 said:

 Yes, the triple play is not one-to-one comparison of course. More an example that rare isn’t always all skill based or can involve luck.

Experience, yes college experience. There are plenty of lightweights who have wrestled 12+ years by the time they start college. But having wrestled at 6 years old probably doesn’t help as much as having a year(s) in college.

 

Being a four timer is an incredible feat but there is definitely a percentage of circumstance at play. 

Gable wrestled during the era of no freshman varsity, he couldn’t get 4. He’s a two-timer (1-1-2). So when in history you wrestled matters. Then you only got Three now COVID in play you get five.

I do not disagree at all that it’s impressive to win all 20-ish NCAA bouts and be a four-timer.
 

 

Steveson, not Dan.  He of course was only a 2x'er also but I bet he goes for the 4-for-4 if he had the chance.

There have now been quite a few freshmen upper weight national champs in recent years.   AJ Ferrari, Myles Martin, Mark Hall, J'Den Cox.  The common denominator likely being that they had a lot of experience prior to college.

[BigRedFan]

1 hour ago, Pinnacle said:

One thing about being an Ivy wrestler is the comparitively weak schedule. The Big10 especially is a grind from start to finish. 

Some of the Cornell guy's had some of the highest RPIs in their weight classes.  Ungar #2, Arujau #2, Cornella #6, Ramirez #5, Foca #2.

[scribers]

10 hours ago, SocraTease said:

I'm not trying to diminish their accomplishments. They have wrestled at extremely high levels and should be commended and celebrated.

Yianni had 2 years off though, right?   Dake won so many close matches.  He was nowhere near as dominant overall as DT, whom (yes) he beat in close matches.  

But Taylor (who won 2 titles) is absolutely a better wrestler overall than four timers like Pat Smith, Steiber, and (so far) Yianni.   In fact, I would say he has surpassed even Sanderson.

Same thing could be said about Boroughs, who "only" won two titles.  

Or even Spencer Lee.  Much more dominant than Yianni.   Cornell doesn't wrestle the level of competition that the Big Ten faces.

My point: the four timer focus is not the sole or absolute measure of greatness.

Yes, luck figures into it.  A very large swath of people (especially religious, conservative, anti-scientific folks) like simple solutions and explanations.  They over-emphasize personal control (responsibility) and downplay or ignore all the conditions and contributing factors that are outside our control.   

Wade Schalles (a great wrestler and very creative, fierce mind) recently pointed out (honestly and frankly) in an interview with Mark Bader that wrestlers are not the smartest lot as a whole.  They are like football players academically (or worse) and in other ways.  And he was right in terms of the data.  And, I would add, my own observations for what small worth they might be.

Yes, there are exceptions, but they prove the rule.  

 

 

 

"I feel your pain" - Bill Clinton

[D3UC157]

1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

Steveson, not Dan.  He of course was only a 2x'er also but I bet he goes for the 4-for-4 if he had the chance.

There have now been quite a few freshmen upper weight national champs in recent years.   AJ Ferrari, Myles Martin, Mark Hall, J'Den Cox.  The common denominator likely being that they had a lot of experience prior to college.

Whoops forgot about that Gable.

 

Yup. Seems like this is becoming more common in the current times. Not sure if this era is an anomaly or the occurrence of 4 timers will become more frequent.

[skandar]

8 hours ago, Theo Brixton said:

Pretty sure that Burroughs would not trade for two more NCAA titles if it meant his skillset at graduation was similar to the other 4-timers, sans Sanderson. I can guarantee Burroughs likes his 7 world/Olympic titles far more than two extra NCAA titles. Which is the point made by Socratease. Despite having "only" 2 NCAA titles, he achieved a higher level of wrestling while in college than any 4-timer with the exception of possibly Sanderson.

 

You’re dumb. No one said anything about skillset or sacrificing any world titles. Just that he would’ve won some college matches by less points in 2011.

 

Also…Gable Steveson achieved a higher level of wrestling than anyone in the modern era, but that’s a whole different argument and has nothing to do with being a 4 timer or this post.

Edited March 19, 2023 by skandar

[D3 for LU]

11 hours ago, SocraTease said:

The 4-timer stuff is so compromised and fetishized.   

It doesn't account for the level of competition and other variables.

A 3-timer like Nolf (who only barely lost in the finals to an NCAA champ his freshman year whom he earlier pinned)  is actually better than a 4-timer like Yianni.  And he was absolutely more dominant than Yianni or Dake.

Steiber won some finals he arguably should not have given the calls.  

Luck, draws, and other factors play so much of a role. 

Most people are only capable of thinking in terms of simple causality.   The world doesn't work that way. 

It's a mental blindness of the worst kind and attributable in large part to evolutionary psychology.

I'm surprised at you, sir...

why throw shade at all?

D3