Iowa Coaching Change?

[Lordnelson]

21 hours ago, Coastal said:

I'm a huge fan of the Brands brothers.   They've pushed Iowa to irrelevancy faster than anyone else could have if they were trying.

I mean, they've been there 20 years.  Won NCAA's 4 times.

[Lordnelson]

The biggest issue the Brands has is that their current model is tanking hard.  They've gone all in in the NIL market and the returns aren't meeting their output.  Their recruited up and comers are just non-existent right now.  So unless they make some miracle close to the season they should expect some heat.

[Southend]

1 hour ago, Lordnelson said:

The biggest issue the Brands has is that their current model is tanking hard.  They've gone all in in the NIL market and the returns aren't meeting their output.  Their recruited up and comers are just non-existent right now.  So unless they make some miracle close to the season they should expect some heat.

Yes, they need to step down. Come back to visit every once in awhile like Mr. Gable did. Spend a little summer free time up in the stabbin cabin, you know what I mean, and enjoy life. I’m not sure tom enjoys himself right now. 

[fishbane]

1 hour ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

Zalesky's seat didn't really heat up until he lost the CyHawk dual. That loss to ISU was a pretty tough pill for fans to swallow. 

Brands just lost his first CyHawk.  But there were a lot of things that came together working against Zalesky.  It was the last year of his contract.  Brands is signed thought 2028-2029.  Brands had left and out recruited Iowa in Iowa in an especially good year for Iowa HS wrestling.  Five top 40 wrestlers and Iowa only got one.  Zalesky only landed Morningstar.  ISU got Mueller.  Brands got Slaton and 4xers LeClere and Borschel to go to VT. 

In another timeline where Zalesky has a few more years on his contract and Brands stays as his assistant in Iowa City they get 4/5 of the top in-state recruits and Metcalf and Zalesky has 6 or 7 team titles.

[Doublehalf]

2 hours ago, fishbane said:

The problem with canning Brands for any of these guys is that there is risk.

I used to have this mindset as a Bills fan. Don't fire McDermott, we're right there every year, just can't win the big one.

The problem is, there is also risk in keeping coaches too. Fans aren't here to watch teams like the Bills or Iowa finish 2-5 every year. They want championships. 

I also think of other sports, basketball being one. Toronto Raptors lost in the NBA championship and they fired their coach and the next year won the whole thing. The warriors had been killing it in the playoffs but coming up short and then fired Brown for Kerr and then had a dynasty.

We can't be afraid to take risk and try something new. Iowa will still be a program that can finish 5th in the country without the Brands, it's Iowa. They are losing more ground every year to the top powers. The next few years they won't be sniffing top 3 with PSU, OKST, VTech and will be battling for 4th and 5th with the likes of Iowa St and Ohio St. 

Take a chance because we know where things are headed and it's worth the risk.

Edited February 21 by Doublehalf

[fishbane]

1 hour ago, Doublehalf said:

I used to have this mindset as a Bills fan. Don't fire McDermott, we're right there every year, just can't win the big one.

The problem is, there is also risk in keeping coaches too. Fans aren't here to watch teams like the Bills or Iowa finish 2-5 every year. They want championships. 

I also think of other sports, basketball being one. Toronto Raptors lost in the NBA championship and they fired their coach and the next year won the whole thing. The warriors had been killing it in the playoffs but coming up short and then fired Brown for Kerr and then had a dynasty.

We can't be afraid to take risk and try something new. Iowa will still be a program that can finish 5th in the country without the Brands, it's Iowa. They are losing more ground every year to the top powers. The next few years they won't be sniffing top 3 with PSU, OKST, VTech and will be battling for 4th and 5th with the likes of Iowa St and Ohio St. 

Take a chance because we know where things are headed and it's worth the risk.

The reality is that most teams that fire their coach do not win the next year and I am not sure how apt these examples are. You are comparing the Bill and Raptors teams that had never won anything and the Warriors who hadn't won in 40 years to Tom Brands and the Iowa Hawkeyes who have won 4 national titles in past 19 years.  Virtually any professional sports franchise in North America would take that kind of success even the most storied organizations like the Yankees and Canadiens.

When Jerry Jones had his bust up with Jimmy Johnson he famously opined that "Any one of 500 coaches would have won those Super Bowls" speaking of the 1992 and 1993 Super Bowls.  He soon found out how difficult it was to do what they had done.  What followed was 35 years of tinkering 9 different coaches and less success. 

Wrestling doesn't have the $$ of these other sports.  To get rid of Brands with three years remaining on his deal to replace him with Metcalf, Dieringer, or Schwab would be foolish.  The Brandses are a package deal and you'd be paying them $1MN+/year and another $1M on whatever staff replaces them.  So spending $2M+/year on coaching to still not out recruit OSU, PSU, Ohio State.  Just give the Brandses that $1M to spend on NIL and they will have more success.

[Doublehalf]

35 minutes ago, fishbane said:

The reality is that most teams that fire their coach do not win the next year and I am not sure how apt these examples are. You are comparing the Bill and Raptors teams that had never won anything and the Warriors who hadn't won in 40 years to Tom Brands and the Iowa Hawkeyes who have won 4 national titles in past 19 years.  Virtually any professional sports franchise in North America would take that kind of success even the most storied organizations like the Yankees and Canadiens.

When Jerry Jones had his bust up with Jimmy Johnson he famously opined that "Any one of 500 coaches would have won those Super Bowls" speaking of the 1992 and 1993 Super Bowls.  He soon found out how difficult it was to do what they had done.  What followed was 35 years of tinkering 9 different coaches and less success. 

Wrestling doesn't have the $$ of these other sports.  To get rid of Brands with three years remaining on his deal to replace him with Metcalf, Dieringer, or Schwab would be foolish.  The Brandses are a package deal and you'd be paying them $1MN+/year and another $1M on whatever staff replaces them.  So spending $2M+/year on coaching to still not out recruit OSU, PSU, Ohio State.  Just give the Brandses that $1M to spend on NIL and they will have more success.

To your point it should be easier for Iowa to get back on top given their rich history  as opposed to an organization that's never done it. 
 

I wouldn't replace them with Deiringer or even metcalf but as stated you never know who might throw their hat in the ring. From a money standpoint it makes sense to keep brands on their deal but not from a winning standpoint. You would just be delaying the inevitable and have 3 more years finishing somewhere between 3-6 place. Top college programs have more money now than they have ever had at the top programs. 

[fishbane]

1 hour ago, Doublehalf said:

To your point it should be easier for Iowa to get back on top given their rich history  as opposed to an organization that's never done it. 
 

I wouldn't replace them with Deiringer or even metcalf but as stated you never know who might throw their hat in the ring. From a money standpoint it makes sense to keep brands on their deal but not from a winning standpoint. You would just be delaying the inevitable and have 3 more years finishing somewhere between 3-6 place. Top college programs have more money now than they have ever had at the top programs. 

I don't know that historical success makes it easier but they certainly could fall further into irrelevancy than a team that hasn't won anything.  Brands is maybe the second or third greatest coach of his generation.  When moving on from a winner like that it is best to be conservative.  Returning to you analogy this would be like the Warriors deciding to move on from Kerr and Curry vs their predecessors who never won anything.

I think you don't move on from him unless 1) he retires, 2) results fall to a level where a Metcalf/Schwab type would be seen as an improvement, or 3) some scandal demands his firing.  When replacing one of the best coaches of his generation it is difficult to do better and easy to do worse.

[Doublehalf]

29 minutes ago, fishbane said:

I don't know that historical success makes it easier but they certainly could fall further into irrelevancy than a team that hasn't won anything.  Brands is maybe the second or third greatest coach of his generation.  When moving on from a winner like that it is best to be conservative.  Returning to you analogy this would be like the Warriors deciding to move on from Kerr and Curry vs their predecessors who never won anything.

I think you don't move on from him unless 1) he retires, 2) results fall to a level where a Metcalf/Schwab type would be seen as an improvement, or 3) some scandal demands his firing.  When replacing one of the best coaches of his generation it is difficult to do better and easy to do worse.

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on this one friend.

If Brands is at Iowa another 10 years they won't sniff another title. They need someone outside of the Hawkeye family. 

Edited February 22 by Doublehalf

[ironmonkey]

Ovehaul the assistant coaching staff under him.  Offer associate head coach to high level candidate.  The problem iis that at least some of the best candidates with Iowa roots seem to have bad feelings about the program 

[SplitTheG]

7 hours ago, Lordnelson said:

You actually think that Gilman is Head Coach material?  

I'm living in the Matrix, no doubt.

Proven himself as a good assistant at OK State. Gets on great at Penn State. Has that mix of a wild card personality that comes from his Iowa background with the know how and modernity of the Penn State program. 

I think Iowa shouldn't lose their identity but they should adapt and innovate their methods. Gilman fits that role. Now, he may be too much of a wild card, I totally admit that, but it would be a fun and entertaining watch and I think he would actually achieve a lot with that program. 

[HokieDave87]

2 hours ago, fishbane said:

I don't know that historical success makes it easier but they certainly could fall further into irrelevancy than a team that hasn't won anything.  Brands is maybe the second or third greatest coach of his generation.  When moving on from a winner like that it is best to be conservative.  Returning to you analogy this would be like the Warriors deciding to move on from Kerr and Curry vs their predecessors who never won anything.

I think you don't move on from him unless 1) he retires, 2) results fall to a level where a Metcalf/Schwab type would be seen as an improvement, or 3) some scandal demands his firing.  When replacing one of the best coaches of his generation it is difficult to do better and easy to do worse.

I see Schwab as an improvement. He's got UNI about as good as they can be with the support they get. I think he'd be a great fit for Iowa 

[fishbane]

11 hours ago, Doublehalf said:

Good point with the assistant coaches... When is the last time they had anyone from outside the Iowa program as an assistant?

I think the only assistants Brands had that didn’t wrestle for Iowa were Danny Song and Dan Gable.  Both of them were gone by 2012.  His other assistants over the years were Telford, Morningstar, Luke Lofthouse, Terry Brands, Mike Zadick, Hand, and Schwab.

Tim Hartung was an assistant under Zalesky.

[Lordnelson]

10 hours ago, SplitTheG said:

Proven himself as a good assistant at OK State. Gets on great at Penn State. Has that mix of a wild card personality that comes from his Iowa background with the know how and modernity of the Penn State program. 

I think Iowa shouldn't lose their identity but they should adapt and innovate their methods. Gilman fits that role. Now, he may be too much of a wild card, I totally admit that, but it would be a fun and entertaining watch and I think he would actually achieve a lot with that program. 

You may be right.  I just don't believe a world exists that he would ever be a head coach anywhere, let alone in a place where he lit every bridge on fire on his way out.

[Nak21]

12 hours ago, HokieDave87 said:

I see Schwab as an improvement. He's got UNI about as good as they can be with the support they get. I think he'd be a great fit for Iowa 

Atleast on paper and speaking hypothetically, Schwab seems an upgrade to me. Erisman from Little Rock I’ve mentioned in the past too. I think he has Iowa roots too??

It is interesting someone mentioned how it seems there’s bad blood between former Hawks and the program, the ones who might make good assistants.

Lots of problems in Iowa City it seems and minus a one weekend recent recruiting haul which is still a long ways from panning out, it’s mostly not good news coming out  of Hawkeye land.