Who unalived Charlie?

[jross]

Many stereo types are based on statistical reality, without care for how it makes you uncomfortable.  Stereotypes are part of our biological need to survive.  I may be stupid but it is naive to think we shouldn't use stereotypes or for anyone to claim they don't.  We can be aware of them and try to recognize the dangers... but never go so far as to dismiss the good of them. 

• Would you ask an old person in a wheel chair if they can grab the other side of that 200 pound sofa?
• Or a toddler for directions?
• There is a tiger, should I pet him?
• 20 young men showed up at closing time in the parking lot of this fair, wearing red and blue.  Should I ask if they want to join me in hacky sack?

Stereotypes are often accurate.

• Men are stronger than women
• Asians are good at math
• African Americans are less likely to have two parent households
• Jews are good with money
• Americans are fat 
• Engineers are analytical

Stereotypes are probabilistic sketches, not absolute rules.  Understanding and using stereotypes is not automatically dehumanizing.  

But I'm stupid.

Edited 3 hours ago by jross

[JimmySpeaks]

3 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

You: "But but what about but"

Where do you think I learned it from?  

[Caveira]

Back on track here 

The FBI has released images of a person of interest sought in connection with the fatal shooting of Charlie Kirk, the founder of the conservative youth activist organization Turning Point USA, during an event at Utah Valley University on Wednesday.

"We are asking for the public's help identifying this person of interest in connection with the fatal shooting of Charlie Kirk at Utah Valley University," the FBI's Salt Lake City office said on X on Thursday while sharing two images of the individual, who is wearing a baseball cap and sunglasses and was captured in a stairwell in one of them.

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/charlie-kirk-shooting-fbi-appeals-tips-manhunt-continues/story?id=125469211

[jross]

14 minutes ago, Tripnsweep said:

There's somebody's public persona because they don't want to alienate people, and then there's their real beliefs. When Trump lost the election, Burroughs tweeted out that on that day he was a little more proud than usual to be an American. 

That makes him American, not left or right.

[jross]

31 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

Yes, stereotypes are factually wrong because they're making a simplified, general claim about a diverse group of subjects. It is the opposite of thinking. You're pasting a ready-made judgment about someone onto them before ever addressing them as an individual human being.

And that kind of seeing the world is exactly what leads to something like the Holocaust. The Nazis believed Jews, as a stereotyped group, were ruining the world and had to be exterminated. They pasted a stereotype onto individuals and that made it justifiable in their eyes to kill those individuals.

Same thing in Rwanda: (You are Tutsi) + (Tutsis are evil) = You are evil, and therefore must die. And you, by your own admission, see the world through this framework. 

Let's make it more personal as an example. Common stereotype about conservatives: they are racist.

You are conservative. Conservatives are racist. Therefore you are racist. 

And now you can't push back on that because it follows the exact logic that you're promoting. So, we have established at least 1 of 2 things:

1) jross is stupid and/or immoral

or

2) jross is racist

What discussion led you to believe one cannot push back?

Unlike the accurate stereotypes, to say that conservatives are racist is a wrong and harmful one.  If it was most conservatives, then you would be fine.  But it is by far a minority of conservatives that are racist... so you are wrong.

 

[uncle bernard]

1 minute ago, jross said:

What discussion led you to believe one cannot push back?

Unlike the accurate stereotypes, to say that conservatives are racist is a wrong and harmful one.  If it was most conservatives, then you would be fine.  But it is by far a minority of conservatives that are racist... so you are wrong.

 

Lol, you can't just decide which stereotypes you want to believe and which you don't. The idea that liberal-minded people don't care about self-accountability and respect is also a wrong and harmful stereotype.

Here is your essential worldview:

Stereotypes about people I don't like are true. Stereotypes about people like me aren't true. If I know a few details about a person (skin color, politics, location, etc...) I can neatly apply my pre-conceived stereotype and know exactly what kind of person they are.

[uncle bernard]

@jross I know you love AI, so I thought this might be helpful for you:

Are stereotypes logical?

 

ChatGPT said:

Stereotypes can appear superficially logical, but they're not truly logical when examined critically. Here's a breakdown of why:

---

Why They Might Seem Logical:

1. Based on Patterns: Stereotypes often stem from observed patterns in behavior, culture, or demographics. For example, if a group statistically tends to do X more than another group, it can lead to a generalization.

2. Cognitive Shortcuts: Our brains use heuristics (mental shortcuts) to make quick judgments in complex situations. Stereotyping is one such shortcut — a fast way to predict behavior when we lack detailed information.

---

Why They’re Not Truly Logical:

1. Overgeneralization: Stereotypes assume that all or most members of a group share the same traits, which is statistically and logically false. Groups contain vast individual variation.

2. Confirmation Bias: People tend to notice evidence that supports a stereotype and ignore or discount evidence that contradicts it.

3. Lack of Causal Understanding: Stereotypes often confuse correlation with causation. Just because something is more common in a group doesn’t mean it’s inherent or caused by group identity.

4. Self-fulfilling Prophecies: Acting on a stereotype can influence behavior in a way that reinforces the stereotype, creating a feedback loop rather than an objective truth.

5. Moral and Logical Fallacy: Judging an individual based on group characteristics commits the fallacy of division (assuming what’s true of the group is true of each member).

---

Example:

• Stereotype: "All programmers are introverts."

• Flawed logic: Some programmers are introverts, but that doesn’t logically imply that all are. Nor does it mean being introverted is caused by programming or vice versa.

[uncle bernard]

@jross "illusion of knowing" might be the perfect description of the way your mind works.

Do stereotypes help us understand the world?

 

ChatGPT said:

Stereotypes can appear to help us understand the world by simplifying complex social realities—but that simplicity comes at a cost.

---

Why Stereotypes Seem Helpful:

1. Cognitive shortcuts:
   Our brains constantly try to conserve energy. Stereotypes act like mental shortcuts that help us make quick judgments without deep analysis. For example, assuming a firefighter is brave might help you quickly assess a situation.

2. Pattern recognition:
   Some stereotypes stem from perceived patterns in behavior, culture, or appearance. They can feel like "rules of thumb" that help predict behavior.

3. Social organization:
   In-group/out-group thinking (us vs. them) is part of human social evolution. Stereotypes can strengthen group identity by simplifying how we view others.

---

Why Stereotypes Are Problematic:

1. They oversimplify:
   People are complex. Stereotypes reduce individuals to one-dimensional traits, ignoring their unique identities, histories, and experiences.

2. They often reinforce bias:
   Once we adopt a stereotype, we tend to notice only evidence that supports it (confirmation bias) and ignore what contradicts it.

3. They can be harmful or oppressive:
   Stereotypes can justify discrimination, exclusion, or violence. For example, racial, gender, or cultural stereotypes often underpin systemic inequality.

4. They hinder true understanding:
   Instead of encouraging curiosity or open-mindedness, stereotypes shut down nuanced thinking and create false certainty.

---

So, do they really help us understand the world?

Only superficially.
Stereotypes give us quick impressions, but not accurate or ethical understanding. They might offer an illusion of knowing, but deeper understanding comes from engaging with individuals, context, and complexity—not relying on generalized assumptions.

[Caveira]

7 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

@jross I know you love AI, so I thought this might be helpful for you:

Are stereotypes logical?

 

ChatGPT said:

Stereotypes can appear superficially logical, but they're not truly logical when examined critically. Here's a breakdown of why:

---

Why They Might Seem Logical:

1. Based on Patterns: Stereotypes often stem from observed patterns in behavior, culture, or demographics. For example, if a group statistically tends to do X more than another group, it can lead to a generalization.

2. Cognitive Shortcuts: Our brains use heuristics (mental shortcuts) to make quick judgments in complex situations. Stereotyping is one such shortcut — a fast way to predict behavior when we lack detailed information.

---

Why They’re Not Truly Logical:

1. Overgeneralization: Stereotypes assume that all or most members of a group share the same traits, which is statistically and logically false. Groups contain vast individual variation.

2. Confirmation Bias: People tend to notice evidence that supports a stereotype and ignore or discount evidence that contradicts it.

3. Lack of Causal Understanding: Stereotypes often confuse correlation with causation. Just because something is more common in a group doesn’t mean it’s inherent or caused by group identity.

4. Self-fulfilling Prophecies: Acting on a stereotype can influence behavior in a way that reinforces the stereotype, creating a feedback loop rather than an objective truth.

5. Moral and Logical Fallacy: Judging an individual based on group characteristics commits the fallacy of division (assuming what’s true of the group is true of each member).

---

Example:

• Stereotype: "All programmers are introverts."

• Flawed logic: Some programmers are introverts, but that doesn’t logically imply that all are. Nor does it mean being introverted is caused by programming or vice versa.

You didn’t watch the video did you?

[Caveira]

Not sure if true.  Just reposting. 
 

 

[jross]

16 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

Lol, you can't just decide which stereotypes you want to believe and which you don't.

No, use data if you want to get consensus with others!  I'll wait for the data indicating a high amount of conservatives are racist... it does not exist!

But also yes, for your survival.  

[jross]

13 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

@jross I know you love AI, so I thought this might be helpful for you:

Are stereotypes logical?

 

ChatGPT said:

Stereotypes can appear superficially logical, but they're not truly logical when examined critically. Here's a breakdown of why:

---

Why They Might Seem Logical:

1. Based on Patterns: Stereotypes often stem from observed patterns in behavior, culture, or demographics. For example, if a group statistically tends to do X more than another group, it can lead to a generalization.

2. Cognitive Shortcuts: Our brains use heuristics (mental shortcuts) to make quick judgments in complex situations. Stereotyping is one such shortcut — a fast way to predict behavior when we lack detailed information.

---

Why They’re Not Truly Logical:

1. Overgeneralization: Stereotypes assume that all or most members of a group share the same traits, which is statistically and logically false. Groups contain vast individual variation.

2. Confirmation Bias: People tend to notice evidence that supports a stereotype and ignore or discount evidence that contradicts it.

3. Lack of Causal Understanding: Stereotypes often confuse correlation with causation. Just because something is more common in a group doesn’t mean it’s inherent or caused by group identity.

4. Self-fulfilling Prophecies: Acting on a stereotype can influence behavior in a way that reinforces the stereotype, creating a feedback loop rather than an objective truth.

5. Moral and Logical Fallacy: Judging an individual based on group characteristics commits the fallacy of division (assuming what’s true of the group is true of each member).

---

Example:

• Stereotype: "All programmers are introverts."

• Flawed logic: Some programmers are introverts, but that doesn’t logically imply that all are. Nor does it mean being introverted is caused by programming or vice versa.

Actually yea... you could say 'programmers are introverts' and largely be correct. 

 

It is the use of 'all' that makes it a problem.  You didn't see me use the word 'all' anywhere did you?

[uncle bernard]

6 minutes ago, Caveira said:

You didn’t watch the video did you?

What do you think the point of the video is?

[uncle bernard]

Just now, jross said:

Actually yea... you could say 'programmers are introverts' and largely be correct. 

 

It is the use of 'all' that makes it a problem.  You didn't see me use the word 'all' anywhere did you?

Going back to the original statement, you asked "how can a leftist like wrestling?" 

If you actually understood why stereotypes are illogical - the problematic use of "all" you allude to here - you would never ask such a question. You would know that not all leftists dislike hard work and personal responsibility, and therefore individual leftists liking wrestling is perfectly logical (setting aside the fact that your stereotype is inaccurate from the beginning).

Using your example here, the equivalent question would be "how can a programmer be an extrovert?" Do I need to explain how that's a dumb question or do you see it yet?

[uncle bernard]

11 minutes ago, jross said:

No, use data if you want to get consensus with others!  I'll wait for the data indicating a high amount of conservatives are racist... it does not exist!

But also yes, for your survival.  

Here's some data for you. Took 30 seconds to find.

https://prospect.org/blogs-and-newsletters/tap/how-racist-are-republicans-very/

PRRI also asked respondents whether they believed that, “It always makes the country better when all Americans speak up and protest unfair treatment by government.” Then, it asked the same question, but substituted “Black Americans” for “all Americans.” Democrats made no distinction between the two questions: 71 percent answered Yes to both. Among Republicans, however, 49 percent believed it made the country better when all Americans spoke up and protested unfair governmental treatment, but just 24 percent believed it when Black Americans spoke up and protested.

[JimmySpeaks]

16 minutes ago, jross said:

Actually yea... you could say 'programmers are introverts' and largely be correct. 

 

It is the use of 'all' that makes it a problem.  You didn't see me use the word 'all' anywhere did you?

I was wondering when you were going to get to the “all” dilemma.  

[jross]

Your response only refers to the dangers. 

Sure, let's ask AI

Are stereotypes factually wrong?

Why are stereotypes good?

 

 

How does one determine if a stereotype is accurate?

If our stereotypes were always factually wrong (e.g. tiger temperament), we humans would be dead.  Our survival alone is self-evident that stereotypes can have their benefits.  Psychology Today had an article claiming the displeasing truth that stereotypes are often accurate (link).  It refers to other articles with empirical evidence of accuracy, some of which talk about the wrong education out there about assumed inaccuracies.  But what is accurate?  How about 65%.  Given the CDC recognizes 73.6% of adults age 20 and older are overweight, it is accurate to say that Americans are fat.

 

[jross]

26 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

Going back to the original statement, you asked "how can a leftist like wrestling?" 

If you actually understood why stereotypes are illogical - the problematic use of "all" you allude to here - you would never ask such a question. You would know that not all leftists dislike hard work and personal responsibility, and therefore individual leftists liking wrestling is perfectly logical (setting aside the fact that your stereotype is inaccurate from the beginning).

Using your example here, the equivalent question would be "how can a programmer be an extrovert?" Do I need to explain how that's a dumb question or do you see it yet?

Your assumption that I would think all leftists are the same makes an ass out of you.

Your current inability to have a conversation about groups without getting caught up about individuals is thankfully correctable.

[jross]

I do not know if we will learn who unalived Kirk at this point.  I won't believe it.

What's the scoop behind the would-be Trump assassins?  The second shooter (ear)?  Did we ever get their backstory, motivations, and so on?  What became of them?  Are they still breathing?

[uncle bernard]

2 minutes ago, jross said:

Your assumption that I would think all leftists are the same makes an ass out of you.

Your current inability to have a conversation about groups without getting caught up about individuals is thankfully correctable.

That is the foundational premise of your original question. If you understood that not all leftists are the same, you would never ask how leftists can like wrestling.

You think you're including far more nuance in your use of stereotypes than you actually are.

[jross]

OMG AI is so biased and bigoted. /s

 

[uncle bernard]

4 minutes ago, jross said:

I do not know if we will learn who unalived Kirk at this point.  I won't believe it.

What's the scoop behind the would-be Trump assassins?  The second shooter (ear)?  Did we ever get their backstory, motivations, and so on?  What became of them?  Are they still breathing?

We know quite a bit about Thomas Crooks. It just doesn't track with the juicy headline people want, so they ignored it. He had an extended descent into mental illness. Father reported finding him dancing and talking to himself in his room. His internet search history shows him researching severe depression. Started buying guns and explosives. Wrote an essay on the evils of divisive political campaigns for class. Here's some good reading: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/06/08/us/thomas-crooks-trump-shooter-butler-rally.html?searchResultPosition=1

I think the general takeaway is this kid had fairly middle of the road politics (came from a mixed politics family and peers report moderate opinions) and generally disliked how hostile American politics have become. Then he suffered a mental breakdown of sorts that eventually led to violent inclinations. The most divisive politician of his lifetime visited his hometown and, after the effects of the mental issues, it "made sense" to him to kill him.

The golf-course assassin's case is more clear. He had a long criminal history and was a generally strange guy. Voted for Trump in 2016. Hated him by the end of his first term. Became obsessed with the war in Ukraine (tried to volunteer to fight for Ukraine). That is his stated motivation for the assassination attempt. 

This actually is a another good example of why your reliance on stereotypes is dangerous. The *accuracy* of your stereotypes is only as good as your knowledge of the world and you seem to have very little drive to learn about the world (lack of personal responsibility imo). All of this stuff has been out there for along time and is easily accessible. Instead, you just assumed because you hadn't seen it, it didn't exist. 

[uncle bernard]

3 minutes ago, jross said:

OMG AI is so biased and bigoted. /s

 

Do leftists support personal responsibility

 

ChatGPT said:

Yes, many leftists do support personal responsibility—but they may define and prioritize it differently than conservatives or libertarians.

Here's how personal responsibility is viewed from a leftist perspective:

---

What Leftists Generally Agree With:

• You should take care of yourself and others (e.g., health, education, financial planning).

• People are accountable for their actions (e.g., you can't just blame society for everything).

• Personal responsibility and social responsibility go hand in hand.

---

The Nuance: Structural Context Matters

Where leftists often diverge from conservatives is how much weight they put on systemic factors that influence personal outcomes.

Examples:

• A conservative might say:

  “If you're poor, it's because you didn’t work hard enough.”

• A leftist might respond:

  “Hard work matters—but access to education, healthcare, and fair wages plays a big role too.”

In other words:

Leftists believe people should take responsibility—but they also believe society should provide fair conditions so that personal responsibility is actually possible and meaningful.

---

Key Leftist Beliefs Related to Responsibility:

Principle	Leftist View on Responsibility
Healthcare	People should manage their health, but access must be equal.
Education	Study hard, but quality schools should be available to all.
Crime & Justice	Actions have consequences, but root causes should be addressed.
Poverty	Budgeting matters, but wages, housing, and social safety nets matter too.

---

Summary:

Leftists do support personal responsibility, but they don’t see it in isolation. They emphasize that individual effort is important, but fair social structures are essential to make that effort meaningful and achievable.

Do leftists support personal responsibillity

 

ChatGPT said:

Yes, many leftists do support personal responsibility—but they may define and prioritize it differently than conservatives or libertarians.

Here's how personal responsibility is viewed from a leftist perspective:

---

What Leftists Generally Agree With:

• You should take care of yourself and others (e.g., health, education, financial planning).

• People are accountable for their actions (e.g., you can't just blame society for everything).

• Personal responsibility and social responsibility go hand in hand.

---

The Nuance: Structural Context Matters

Where leftists often diverge from conservatives is how much weight they put on systemic factors that influence personal outcomes.

Examples:

• A conservative might say:

  “If you're poor, it's because you didn’t work hard enough.”

• A leftist might respond:

  “Hard work matters—but access to education, healthcare, and fair wages plays a big role too.”

In other words:

Leftists believe people should take responsibility—but they also believe society should provide fair conditions so that personal responsibility is actually possible and meaningful.

---

Key Leftist Beliefs Related to Responsibility:

Principle	Leftist View on Responsibility
Healthcare	People should manage their health, but access must be equal.
Education	Study hard, but quality schools should be available to all.
Crime & Justice	Actions have consequences, but root causes should be addressed.
Poverty	Budgeting matters, but wages, housing, and social safety nets matter too.

---

Summary:

Leftists do support personal responsibility, but they don’t see it in isolation. They emphasize that individual effort is important, but fair social structures are essential to make that effort meaningful and achievable.

If you're looking at a specific policy or issue, I can break down how personal responsibility is seen through a leftist lens in that context.

 

You said:

Do leftists value discipline and hard work?

 

ChatGPT said:

Yes, many leftists do value discipline and hard work—but again, the way they frame these values often differs from conservative or capitalist narratives.

---

What Leftists Generally Believe About Discipline and Hard Work:

Value	Leftist View
Discipline	Important for personal growth, education, activism, and solidarity.
Hard Work	Respected—but shouldn't be exploited or used to justify inequality.

---

Key Differences in Emphasis:

1. Hard work should not equal exploitation

Leftists tend to reject the idea that hard work justifies extreme wealth gaps or low wages:

“If a farm worker toils 12 hours a day, and a CEO works 8, why does only one get a livable wage?”

They argue that hard work is everywhere, but rewards aren't fairly distributed.

---

2. Discipline is often tied to collective action

In leftist movements (like labor unions, anti-racist organizing, or climate activism), discipline is essential:

• Staying committed to long-term goals

• Organizing protests or strikes

• Building institutions (e.g., co-ops, community orgs)

So while the language of discipline may be less emphasized in mainstream leftist culture than, say, in military or business culture, the practice of it is absolutely there.

---

Countering Misconceptions:

• Myth: “Leftists want handouts and don’t want to work.”

• Reality: Most leftists support public investment, fair wages, and dignity for all work—not laziness or dependency.

---

Summary:

Leftists do value discipline and hard work, but they also:

• Critique how capitalism rewards some labor over others unfairly

• Believe everyone deserves dignity and basic needs, regardless of job type

• See discipline as part of sustained, collective efforts for justice—not just individual success

[jross]

I like the nuance.  Let's continue.  @BerniePragle Why does ChatGPT pair individual efforts with collective crutches?  Who decides what are fair conditions?  This attempts to a soften leftist flaws while implying conservative views are harsh.  A conservative gives consideration to what ChatGPT says but the balance in the details makes a difference.

 

[Caveira]

31 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

That is the foundational premise of your original question. If you understood that not all leftists are the same, you would never ask how leftists can like wrestling.

You think you're including far more nuance in your use of stereotypes than you actually are.

Since y’all like AI this now proves this to be a fact not a stereotype.   Two fascinating facts here.    Liberals mostly do not like wrestling.   It is to hard of a sport for them.    It is impossible for a wrestling fan to like the wnba more than wrestling.    

 

 

For liberals in the U.S., the top sports they are more likely to be fans of (compared with conservatives) include:

1. Soccer (MLS, World Cup, international football) – tends to attract younger, urban, and diverse fans.

2. Basketball (NBA, WNBA, college basketball) – especially the NBA, which polls show has a more liberal fan base.

3. Tennis – especially with interest in players like Serena Williams, Naomi Osaka, Rafael Nadal.

4. Track & Field / Running / Marathons – often tied to health, fitness, and urban events.

5. Swimming – both Olympic swimming and recreational swimming rank high in liberal-leaning areas.

6. Surfing / Skateboarding – alternative/lifestyle sports often connected to liberal coastal cultures.

7. Cycling – both competitive and recreational, especially in liberal cities like Portland, Austin, Boulder.

8. Climbing / Outdoor Adventure Sports – rock climbing, hiking, mountaineering often overlap with liberal outdoors culture.

9. Baseball (MLB) – still has a strong liberal fan base in big cities, though it skews mixed overall.

10. Women’s Sports in general – WNBA, NWSL (soccer), women’s college basketball, etc. have disproportionately liberal fan bases.