UWW changing transfer rules?

[1032004]

Saw several including nomad posting about this, but not totally clear on the implications.  For example Nomad said he thought Myles Amine would need to live in San Marino, but reading this link they just say “residence,” could that just mean having an address?

https://cdn.uww.org/2024-11/241108_change_of_nationality_rules_eng_0.pdf

https://cdn.uww.org/2024-11/change_of_nationality_regulation_eng_oct2024_final.pdf

[Wrestleknownothing]

1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

Saw several including nomad posting about this, but not totally clear on the implications.  For example Nomad said he thought Myles Amine would need to live in San Marino, but reading this link they just say “residence,” could that just mean having an address?

https://cdn.uww.org/2024-11/241108_change_of_nationality_rules_eng_0.pdf

https://cdn.uww.org/2024-11/change_of_nationality_regulation_eng_oct2024_final.pdf

The old rule allowed for transferring and competing for another country if you had a residency permit (does not mean you actually lived there) or a valid passport. The new rule only allows that if you have a valid passport.

If Amine has only a San Marino passport he fine. If he is competing for San Marino under the now removed residency permit exception there is a two year transition period to comply with the passport provision.

If he has dual nationality he will need to produce a proof of residency in San Marino. 

Edited November 12 by Wrestleknownothing

[Takuto_Otoguro]

I thought they would like non-wrestling countries winning medals. Transfers are the only way for that to happen consistently. It certainly makes for a more entertaining product from a fan perspective. I don't like this change.

Edited November 12 by Takuto_Otoguro

[Wrestleknownothing]

56 minutes ago, Takuto_Otoguro said:

I thought they would like non-wrestling countries winning medals. Transfers are the only way for that to happen consistently. It certainly makes for a more entertaining product from a fan perspective. I don't like this change.

I thought that was a little odd, too. From their summary:

"Acknowledging that this excessive use of the rules has negatively impacted the participation in, and the development of our sport for nationals in many countries"

So I was trying to think which countries would have this problem? I suppose some of the eastern European countries that have taken in Russian nationals (Uzbekistan, Albania, Azerbeijan, and Bulgaria all had Russian medalists in Paris). But countries like San Marino, Italy, Bahrain would not have this problem.

The other question is who would complain? Probably not the beneficiaries of the Russians. More likely it is the countries who did not win medals, but thought they could have with fewer Russians in the competition.

[maligned]

18 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I thought that was a little odd, too. From their summary:

"Acknowledging that this excessive use of the rules has negatively impacted the participation in, and the development of our sport for nationals in many countries"

So I was trying to think which countries would have this problem? I suppose some of the eastern European countries that have taken in Russian nationals (Uzbekistan, Albania, Azerbeijan, and Bulgaria all had Russian medalists in Paris). But countries like San Marino, Italy, Bahrain would not have this problem.

The other question is who would complain? Probably not the beneficiaries of the Russians. More likely it is the countries who did not win medals, but thought they could have with fewer Russians in the competition.

Yeah, in nations like San Marino or Bahrain, it's a non-issue. But so many of the transfers are happening to Romania, Hungary, Italy, and others that would produce genuinely competitive candidates that need mat time to develop. Yes, there are probably sore losers complaining about the current climate, but I'm sure there are plenty of private clubs and individuals from second-tier wrestling nations with genuine programs that are voicing their complaints about lost opportunities too.

[CHROMEBIRD]

Does it create a loophole in the UWW's one time only transfer rule? Like could a wrestler transfer and the be like oops, I no longer have a passport so I'm going back to my old country. I guess they'd have to sit out for 3 years, but still.

[GrandOlm]

12 hours ago, maligned said:

Yeah, in nations like San Marino or Bahrain, it's a non-issue. But so many of the transfers are happening to Romania, Hungary, Italy, and others that would produce genuinely competitive candidates that need mat time to develop. Yes, there are probably sore losers complaining about the current climate, but I'm sure there are plenty of private clubs and individuals from second-tier wrestling nations with genuine programs that are voicing their complaints about lost opportunities too.

Do Romania, Hungary, Italy actually have anyone? Italy is just Cuban transfers recently. Even Poland which, is the shining star of second tier nations, managed to produce someone like Robert Baran. Still not good enough to medal for the program.

It's just really hard to challenge American's youth system or Dagestan's live, breath, drink, sleep wrestling for a non wrestling nation.

It depends how generous their federation is. Poland for example sends near full teams so transfers absolutely take. A lot of nations don't even bother unless they feel they have a medal contender (which transfers impact even if your country does not take them). 

[CHROMEBIRD]

19 minutes ago, GrandOlm said:

Do Romania, Hungary, Italy actually have anyone? Italy is just Cuban transfers recently. Even Poland which, is the shining star of second tier nations, managed to produce someone like Robert Baran. Still not good enough to medal for the program.

It's just really hard to challenge American's youth system or Dagestan's live, breath, drink, sleep wrestling for a non wrestling nation.

It depends how generous their federation is. Poland for example sends near full teams so transfers absolutely take. A lot of nations don't even bother unless they feel they have a medal contender (which transfers impact even if your country does not take them). 

Maybe UWW Seniors could one day benefit from a relegation/promotion-like system, if it ever gets big enough. I know there's already U23, U20, Continentals, etc. but maybe a development sub-division for scrappy up and coming nations would encourage participation. It probably gets boring seeing the same handful-or-so of countries on the podium all the time.

[maligned]

12 hours ago, GrandOlm said:

Do Romania, Hungary, Italy actually have anyone? Italy is just Cuban transfers recently. Even Poland which, is the shining star of second tier nations, managed to produce someone like Robert Baran. Still not good enough to medal for the program.

It's just really hard to challenge American's youth system or Dagestan's live, breath, drink, sleep wrestling for a non wrestling nation.

It depends how generous their federation is. Poland for example sends near full teams so transfers absolutely take. A lot of nations don't even bother unless they feel they have a medal contender (which transfers impact even if your country does not take them). 

Italy has sent a handful of homegrowns in all 3 styles regularly (although they have certainly had many empty spots in their lineups).

Hungary and Romania have always sent full teams in all weights in men's freestyle, with occasional medal contenders--so any spot taken by an import is stealing a spot from a homegrown athlete.

Edited November 14 by maligned

[1032004]

 

 

[GrandOlm]

On 11/14/2024 at 8:59 AM, maligned said:

Italy has sent a handful of homegrowns in all 3 styles regularly (although they have certainly had many empty spots in their lineups).

Hungary and Romania have always sent full teams in all weights in men's freestyle, with occasional medal contenders--so any spot taken by an import is stealing a spot from a homegrown athlete.

So I checked 2023 worlds, especially since they were an Olympic qualifier and would get the best turnout you can hope for. 

Romania does not have a 125 kg entrant. Hungary does not have a 79 kg entrant. Neither sent a full team. Federations are not as generous as the United States, which happily sends full Greco teams that get crushed tournament after tournament. They want results (which means someone who can win Olympics Bronze or better at that tournament). 

The cold hard truth is that the only thing most of these national sporting federations actually care about is making these numbers go up. Wrestling is just one means to an end for that. If wrestling were ever removed from the olympics, it would regress to something like what amateur sumo exists as. The amount of countries with culturally healthy and relevant wrestling cultures, you can count on one or two hands (maybe). And Freestyle is a terrible investment from a homegrown prospective. Greco is a much better bet for a country if you want to try wrestling, you don't have to deal with Greco versions of these Freestyle/Folk crazed regions pumping out athletes who have been training since 5.  

[Tripnsweep]

On 11/13/2024 at 7:58 PM, GrandOlm said:

Do Romania, Hungary, Italy actually have anyone? Italy is just Cuban transfers recently. Even Poland which, is the shining star of second tier nations, managed to produce someone like Robert Baran. Still not good enough to medal for the program.

It's just really hard to challenge American's youth system or Dagestan's live, breath, drink, sleep wrestling for a non wrestling nation.

It depends how generous their federation is. Poland for example sends near full teams so transfers absolutely take. A lot of nations don't even bother unless they feel they have a medal contender (which transfers impact even if your country does not take them). 

Romania bought Albert Saritov a few years ago. I think he has a win against Cael Sanderson at worlds.