Craig Jones Invitational

[wrestle87]

4 hours ago, BAC said:

Btw is it true the wrestlers got 10k just for agreeing to compete?

Yes, $10,001 to be precise.  ADCC gives champs $10K, so Craig decided to give all entrants $10,001 to be able to say “you’ll earn more just by stepping on the mat here than you will if you win the whole thing over there.” 

CJI was just a well funded and very successful grass roots assault on a rigid monopoly, and really just Craig (and now everyone) flipping the bird at ADCC.

[1032004]

9 minutes ago, wrestle87 said:

Yes, $10,001 to be precise.  ADCC gives champs $10K, so Craig decided to give all entrants $10,001 to be able to say “you’ll earn more just by stepping on the mat here than you will if you win the whole thing over there.” 

CJI was just a well funded and very successful grass roots assault on a rigid monopoly, and really just Craig (and now everyone) flipping the bird at ADCC.

Is Flo part of the reason people are “flipping the bird” at it?

[BAC]

46 minutes ago, wrestle87 said:

Yes, $10,001 to be precise.  ADCC gives champs $10K, so Craig decided to give all entrants $10,001 to be able to say “you’ll earn more just by stepping on the mat here than you will if you win the whole thing over there.” 

CJI was just a well funded and very successful grass roots assault on a rigid monopoly, and really just Craig (and now everyone) flipping the bird at ADCC.

Where did he get that kind of money? I mean…. 10k to enter, 1 million for the winner of each weight class? I thought Craig Jones was just some early-30s grappler dude. Has some random billionaire somewhere decided to bankroll him?

[1032004]

11 minutes ago, BAC said:

Where did he get that kind of money? I mean…. 10k to enter, 1 million for the winner of each weight class? I thought Craig Jones was just some early-30s grappler dude. Has some random billionaire somewhere decided to bankroll him?

According to Chael, the “strong rumor” is Zuckerberg, but Jones says it is a “crypto guy”

 

[1032004]

I’ve seen this described as “the best match in the history of the sport”:

I’ll give them them that it was pretty entertaining, but it reminded me of a county level high school wrestling match with some chokeholds mixed in, and at times looked like 8 year old siblings fighting each other when the one guy kept putting his hand over the other guy’s mouth.

[BAC]

58 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

According to Chael, the “strong rumor” is Zuckerberg, but Jones says it is a “crypto guy”

 

Interesting. Chael’s take seems mostly on point. Supposedly they announced a CJI 2025 event, so maybe that means the benefactor, whoever it is, is committed. Wonder if this will be the new grappling standard? 

[wrestle87]

4 hours ago, BAC said:

Where did he get that kind of money? I mean…. 10k to enter, 1 million for the winner of each weight class? I thought Craig Jones was just some early-30s grappler dude. Has some random billionaire somewhere decided to bankroll him?

Well, he's an exceedingly good grappler, ADCC finalist, hair away from tapping gordon ryan (his old training partner), but he's also hands down the biggest social media name in jiu jitsu because of his tireless Australian sense of humor. 

He effectively comes from the Jiu Jitsu version of the Dan Gable Hawkeyes, but he didn't forget how to laugh and poke fun at people, jiu jitsu, and himself.  

[pcostilow]

12 hours ago, 1032004 said:

I’ve seen this described as “the best match in the history of the sport”:

I’ll give them them that it was pretty entertaining, but it reminded me of a county level high school wrestling match with some chokeholds mixed in, and at times looked like 8 year old siblings fighting each other when the one guy kept putting his hand over the other guy’s mouth.

It was a very exciting match, particularly for this high a level. Jiu jitsu matches tend to be much cagier than this because submissions can come from so many positions, little mistakes can end a match in a way that doesn't exist in wrestling. I would also add, in no way is this meant to be an insult, but if you are unfamiliar with jiu jitsu, there is plenty of positional nuance that you might not appreciate. This was basically two guys throwing caution to the wind the whole match, think of it like Ryan Lang - Darrion Caldwell.

[pcostilow]

13 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Is Flo part of the reason people are “flipping the bird” at it?

A little, not really. ADCC has exploded in popularity the last 5-10 years, has grown significantly, and has started a whole circuit of satellite tournaments, the head of ADCC has flaunted some wealth (although I believe he is independently wealthy), and through all this the prize money has never changed - $10k to the winners, nothing to anyone else. The fact that it is behind Flo's paywall (and Flo is probably more hated in BJJ than in wrestling), and ADCC has really attached its flag to Gordon Ryan, who most people don't like, have added to this. Craig is, on the other hand, completely unserious and pretty universally loved in the sport for both his skill and his sense of humor. 

[meZYNbrink]

13 hours ago, 1032004 said:

According to Chael, the “strong rumor” is Zuckerberg, but Jones says it is a “crypto guy”

 

Somehow Chael is wrong every time

[meZYNbrink]

The event was super fun. As an ex wrestler in BJJ, I totally get both sides of the argument against and for a guard-centric combat sport. While guard can be extremely effective and lead to much submission offense, it shouldn't be considered a dominant position. If there's a takedown to guard and no other action, the player initiating the takedown should be rewarded. If a player wants to concede to guard, there should be an impetus on the guard player to overcome a deficit. My 2 cents.

[pcostilow]

1 hour ago, meZYNbrink said:

The event was super fun. As an ex wrestler in BJJ, I totally get both sides of the argument against and for a guard-centric combat sport. While guard can be extremely effective and lead to much submission offense, it shouldn't be considered a dominant position. If there's a takedown to guard and no other action, the player initiating the takedown should be rewarded. If a player wants to concede to guard, there should be an impetus on the guard player to overcome a deficit. My 2 cents.

100% agree. I'm a purple belt and primarily a guard player, and i think pulling guard is conceding dominant position, and if you don't advance your position from there, i don't know how you can say you would. Failed submissions should provide you with as much credit as almost takedowns - none.

[CHROMEBIRD]

23 hours ago, BAC said:

Btw is it true the wrestlers got 10k just for agreeing to compete?

Incl Kerk or what?

[1032004]

8 minutes ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

Incl Kerk or what?

Everyone did.  It was an invitational, there were only 16 guys in each of the 2 brackets 

 

[Threadkilla]

On 8/18/2024 at 9:10 AM, Jim L said:

Just watched Nolfs match and the BJJ guy looked relatively good on his feet. I would not say Nolfs dominated on the feet  He seemed cautious about going all in for TDs as he was clearly outmatched on the ground. Even when Nolf got a TD his opponent was able to get right up if he wanted to

I was talking about the first round, commenting in real time pbp, where Nolf was dominant on his feet.  That obviously changed.  

[Jim L]

55 minutes ago, Threadkilla said:

I was talking about the first round, commenting in real time pbp, where Nolf was dominant on his feet.  That obviously changed.  

8 hours ago, meZYNbrink said:

The event was super fun. As an ex wrestler in BJJ, I totally get both sides of the argument against and for a guard-centric combat sport. While guard can be extremely effective and lead to much submission offense, it shouldn't be considered a dominant position. If there's a takedown to guard and no other action, the player initiating the takedown should be rewarded. If a player wants to concede to guard, there should be an impetus on the guard player to overcome a deficit. My 2 cents.

 

General agreement, and as a ex wrestler/ judoka I won a lot of matches against guys who were "better" than me at BJJ by getting a TD and then not getting swept.  Maybe I would eventually pass and then dominate, but many times not.

Most BJJ rules sets worked for my style, even if it was a bit ugly when I got the mat

[Threadkilla]

8 minutes ago, Jim L said:

General agreement, and as a ex wrestler/ judoka I won a lot of matches against guys who were "better" than me at BJJ by getting a TD and then not getting swept.  Maybe I would eventually pass and then dominate, but many times not.

Most BJJ rules sets worked for my style, even if it was a bit ugly when I got the mat

The judges had the first round as a split decision 2-1 10-9 for Ruotolo. Nolf had 2 good slams but Ruotolo had a choke attempt. 

[MPhillips]

FFS....

 

[BAC]

On 8/19/2024 at 12:37 PM, meZYNbrink said:

The event was super fun. As an ex wrestler in BJJ, I totally get both sides of the argument against and for a guard-centric combat sport. While guard can be extremely effective and lead to much submission offense, it shouldn't be considered a dominant position. If there's a takedown to guard and no other action, the player initiating the takedown should be rewarded. If a player wants to concede to guard, there should be an impetus on the guard player to overcome a deficit. My 2 cents.

Just wanted to chime to say that, my non-BJJ eyes agree with this 100% -- although after watching Downey's second match, I'm not sure I even see how there's another side of the argument.

You can see it here at the 4:00 mark:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyneYOMCvI0

Admittedly I'm biased by my wrestling background, as it's hard for me to take seriously a guy to drops to his back like a submissive dog. But even accepting that legit BJJ offense can be initiated from there, what's the rationale for rewarding a guy who pulls guard and then initiates zero offense? 

That's what happened to Downey.  Downey spent 14:50 of the 15 minute match on top, because Bradley pulled guard.  And once he was on his back like a stuck turtle, Bradley attempted NOTHING.  Nothing at all. 

Granted, Downey didn't seem to have any clue how to initiate a submission, so he pretty much spent the whole match grinding Bradley's head and back into the mat, squeezing, and occasionally flinging Bradley's body around to try to get a better angle.  But I don't see how anyone could question that Downey was the aggressor from start to finish.  The most you could say for Bradley is that he was defending effectively and waiting for Downey to make a mistake that he never made.

Why wouldn't that mean Downey wins? Even granting ZERO credit to Downey for smashing Bradley against the mat the whole match, why wouldn't Downey's offensive effort be the tiebreaker?

The only way you can say Downey lost is if you put the impetus on action in that scenario to the guy in the dominant position (on top).  Which, apparently, is how the judges saw it, and the ref too, as even he stopped the match to warn Downey for stalling, despite initiating all the action. 

Again, I'm not a BJJ guy, but how is that not insane?  It's basically saying you can curl up into a tight little ball for 15 minutes, laughing and saying "la la la you can't get me" like a 3 year old, and as long as you survive without being seriously threatened or scored upon, you win.

Bradley even had the gall to whine about Downey in the post-match interview for making the match boring. First time I ever felt solidary with Pat Downey.

It does seem like there's some dissent within the BJJ community about this, as the announcers thought Downey did enough to win.  And props to guys like the Ruotolos and Thacketts who thrive on offense.  But man, to this outsider's eyes, if BJJ is going to thrive it needs to stop rewarding defense.  

 

Edited August 20 by BAC

[meZYNbrink]

33 minutes ago, BAC said:

Just wanted to chime to say that, my non-BJJ eyes agree with this 100% -- although after watching Downey's second match, I'm not sure I even see how there's another side of the argument.

You can see it here at the 4:00 mark:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyneYOMCvI0

Admittedly I'm biased by my wrestling background, as it's hard for me to take seriously a guy to drops to his back like a submissive dog. But even accepting that legit BJJ offense can be initiated from there, what's the rationale for rewarding a guy who pulls guard and then initiates zero offense? 

That's what happened to Downey.  Downey spent 14:50 of the 15 minute match on top, because Bradley pulled guard.  And once he was on his back like a stuck turtle, Bradley attempted NOTHING.  Nothing at all. 

Granted, Downey didn't seem to have any clue how to initiate a submission, so he pretty much spent the whole match grinding Bradley's head and back into the mat, squeezing, and occasionally flinging Bradley's body around to try to get a better angle.  But I don't see how anyone could question that Downey was the aggressor from start to finish.  The most you could say for Bradley is that he was defending effectively and waiting for Downey to make a mistake that he never made.

Why wouldn't that mean Downey wins? Even granting ZERO credit to Downey for smashing Bradley against the mat the whole match, why wouldn't Downey's offensive effort be the tiebreaker?

The only way you can say Downey lost is if you put the impetus on action in that scenario to the guy in the dominant position (on top).  Which, apparently, is how the judges saw it, and the ref too, as even he stopped the match to warn Downey for stalling, despite initiating all the action. 

Again, I'm not a BJJ guy, but how is that not insane?  It's basically saying you can curl up into a tight little ball for 15 minutes, laughing and saying "la la la you can't get me" like a 3 year old, and as long as you survive without being seriously threatened or scored upon, you win.

Bradley even had the gall to whine about Downey in the post-match interview for making the match boring. First time I ever felt solidary with Pat Downey.

It does seem like there's some dissent within the BJJ community about this, as the announcers thought Downey did enough to win.  And props to guys like the Ruotolos and Thacketts who thrive on offense.  But man, to this outsider's eyes, if BJJ is going to thrive it needs to stop rewarding defense.  

 

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but the rationale for Bradley winning is there. From the BJJ perspective, the ruleset rewards 'initiating grappling exchanges' which Downey only did when securing top position. From there, he basically ran from BJJ exchanges while trying to maintain top position or resecure it. While it may not have looked like Bradley was doing much at all, he was looking to find some BJJ offense that is tough to see with an untrained eye. That said, I'd still have scored it for Downey, all things considered. In my opinion, even though Downey was 'stalling' in the BJJ exchanges on the ground, I'd like to see Bradley actually get to a real submission in order to overcome his concession to bottom position. 

 

Edit: I am extremely biased towards wanting to reward wrestling exchanges in BJJ, especially in BJJ communities. FWIW. A lot/most BJJ guys would disagree with me. Also, would have loved to see a rematch from 2019(?) WNO between PD3 and Nicky Rod in the semis at CJI.

Edited August 20 by meZYNbrink
Added a postscript

[BAC]

3 minutes ago, meZYNbrink said:

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but the rationale for Bradley winning is there. From the BJJ perspective, the ruleset rewards 'initiating grappling exchanges' which Downey only did when securing top position. From there, he basically ran from BJJ exchanges while trying to maintain top position or resecure it. While it may not have looked like Bradley was doing much at all, he was looking to find some BJJ offense that is tough to see with an untrained eye. That said, I'd still have scored it for Downey, all things considered. In my opinion, even though Downey was 'stalling' in the BJJ exchanges on the ground, I'd like to see Bradley actually get to a real submission in order to overcome his concession to bottom position. 

Thanks.  I'll agree my BJJ eye is untrained.  Just curious, what was Bradley doing that I missed?  And what was Downey doing that qualifies as stalling on his part (but not Bradley's part)?   

Anyway, I like your idea that conceding bottom position should be treated as the same as getting taken down, i.e. you start in a deficit.  That at least puts the offensive onus on them.

Also, how about the ref stands them up if nothing happens after 30 seconds or so?  It's pretty painful to watch otherwise.  

[Truzzcat]

My thoughts on the BJJ scoring. Ultimately the main objective is to win by submission which we can all agree on, To me its very similar to takedowns in MMA. If nothing else of significance occurs I think takedown and control should win out, however I think any mounted offense should outweigh that. For a takedown to be rewarded in BJJ I think you should at least have to pin your opponent or secure some sort of dominant position/setup something rather than just sitting in guard. At the same time though the person who is on their back should certainly receive no points for staying in guard on their back and not doing anything.

[Jim L]

4 hours ago, Truzzcat said:

My thoughts on the BJJ scoring. Ultimately the main objective is to win by submission which we can all agree on, To me its very similar to takedowns in MMA. If nothing else of significance occurs I think takedown and control should win out, however I think any mounted offense should outweigh that. For a takedown to be rewarded in BJJ I think you should at least have to pin your opponent or secure some sort of dominant position/setup something rather than just sitting in guard. At the same time though the person who is on their back should certainly receive no points for staying in guard on their back and not doing anything.

I think the IBJJF rules are about right on the points systems. TDs count less than establishing a dominant position but count more than positive actions that does not results in scoring. An almost sweep, guard pass or submission attempt is an advantage than only serve as  a tie breaker. And there are reasonable standards on how good the attempt has to be to count as an advantage.  A successful TD is my opinion should count for more than a good attempt that was ultimately unsuccessful. I hate guard pulling but it makes sense it the context of most BJJ mathcces

There are lots of other issues with the BJJ rules sets and how strategies have evolved around them.

IMO BJJ is just not a spectator friendly sport and not sure how much they should really change the rules to make it more exciting for spectators.

[Truzzcat]

2 hours ago, Jim L said:

I think the IBJJF rules are about right on the points systems. TDs count less than establishing a dominant position but count more than positive actions that does not results in scoring. An almost sweep, guard pass or submission attempt is an advantage than only serve as  a tie breaker. And there are reasonable standards on how good the attempt has to be to count as an advantage.  A successful TD is my opinion should count for more than a good attempt that was ultimately unsuccessful. I hate guard pulling but it makes sense it the context of most BJJ mathcces

There are lots of other issues with the BJJ rules sets and how strategies have evolved around them.

IMO BJJ is just not a spectator friendly sport and not sure how much they should really change the rules to make it more exciting for spectators.

I think it was submission underground that did the 20 minute time limit and then put you into a submission at the end of it in favor of the aggressor. I don't love the subjectivity deciding the match its kind of like the ball grabs from back in the day but I think it would encourage offense during regulation.

[Jim L]

5 hours ago, Truzzcat said:

I think it was submission underground that did the 20 minute time limit and then put you into a submission at the end of it in favor of the aggressor. I don't love the subjectivity deciding the match its kind of like the ball grabs from back in the day but I think it would encourage offense during regulation.

It is hard for me to watch a 6 minute wrestling match without hitting a FF if I have recorded it, I know IBBJJF black belt were 10 minutes which was always way too long for me, nevermind 20 minutes.  There is no incentive to go hard and take chances, lots of waiting. Five minutes is plenty of time to decide who is the better grappler