LEGAL OR NOT???? THE ASSASSIN

[s bags]

Is the assassin legal in Florida youth wrestling?   I thought I read somewhere that the 3/4 and the assassin were once again legal in 2022-2023?

[Hammerlock3]

had a kid in  folk HS state finals hit it and the ref called it illegal. said "it always was" which sounds like ref made up cover tracks BS to me. Its the same lock as a front headlock. 

Edited May 17, 2023 by Hammerlock3

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

https://www.wiaawi.org/Portals/0/PDF/Sports/Wrestling/Assassin-pic-text-final.pdf

https://www.roadtohershey.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/2020-Assassin-State-Interpreter.pdf

 

[Hammerlock3]

this is whats infuriating, refs will just stop it every time they see it without reference to the conddition required to make it illegal.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

17 hours ago, Hammerlock3 said:

this is whats infuriating, refs will just stop it every time they see it without reference to the conddition required to make it illegal.

PA, a state known for allowing tough wrestling advises their refs to never allow it even get to the "end point."  It almost always becomes a choke, at least if applied in the manner that it is generally taught.

[Hammerlock3]

14 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

PA, a state known for allowing tough wrestling advises their refs to never allow it even get to the "end point."  It almost always becomes a choke, at least if applied in the manner that it is generally taught.

so you don't the move is legitamite? honest question

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

8 hours ago, Hammerlock3 said:

so you don't the move is legitamite? honest question

I have used it circa 2007 and even taught it in the past, before the various rulings from NFHS and others.  However, that was before I became an official. 

In my advanced age, I realize that a lot of it's effectiveness is due to the fact that it is a blood choke.  I realize there are pretty good reasons when the NFHS and even PA officials release rulings.

[Offthemat]

It’s one of my favorite moves.   Are there any noted adverse events attributed to it that displays its dangers?

[billyhoyle]

On 5/17/2023 at 10:48 AM, Hammerlock3 said:

this is whats infuriating, refs will just stop it every time they see it without reference to the conddition required to make it illegal.

Is the ref calling it potentially dangerous or assessing it as a penalty? Plenty of top moves in HS wrestling get called potentially dangerous even if they are within what is technically considered legal. You see it a lot with arm bars, leg riding, scrambling, and power halves.  That's just part of what HS wrestling is-the refs side on keeping the athletes healthy.  It's just HS wrestling after all-lets save the serious injuries for college. 

[Dark Energy]

Illegal move.  Once get the hold and start to bring foot up toward head.

[Hammerlock3]

17 hours ago, billyhoyle said:

Is the ref calling it potentially dangerous or assessing it as a penalty? Plenty of top moves in HS wrestling get called potentially dangerous even if they are within what is technically considered legal. You see it a lot with arm bars, leg riding, scrambling, and power halves.  That's just part of what HS wrestling is-the refs side on keeping the athletes healthy.  It's just HS wrestling after all-lets save the serious injuries for college. 

there is a difference between protecting athletes and proiritizing esoteric rules for personal reasons. 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

14 hours ago, Hammerlock3 said:

there is a difference between protecting athletes and proiritizing esoteric rules for personal reasons. 

What personal reasons?

[Hammerlock3]

On 6/2/2023 at 11:30 AM, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

What personal reasons?

looking smart, feeling important. this is real

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

8 hours ago, Hammerlock3 said:

looking smart, feeling important. this is real

Are you saying that a ref calling a hold PD or illegal, using the correct interpretation of the rules, to "look smart" is a bad thing?  If the call is the right one, I can't see how it is bad.  I like looking "smart" as an athlete, as a coach, or as a ref.  As long as the ref is making the correct call, I don't see what is wrong with "smart."  Perhaps an example (real world) would better explain your position?

[killdozer]

So I just had this called on a kid I coach this weekend in another state (It has not been called in my home state).

They said it was an illegal hold. I asked how, why, and when? he said this year there is a picture in the NFHS handbook showing this exact position. They called it the assassin position. 
The ref was very nice about it and understood my position. 

But here is my problem with the ruling. 
A) we didn't do a assassin we did a neck whip. That is a front head lock neck whip position long before it was used in the assassan.

B) It should be called PD. Not Illegal. It is not an assassin. It is a neck whip. 
B) The reasoning given to me was that it cut of circulation and the person can't breathe, therefore a choke. I corrected him and said. Have you ever seen that used in MMA if that is true (No you haven't). Also, It is only a choke because the defensive wrestler is turning into the lock (or away from the offensive wrestlers body) thus causing themselves to not be able to breathe (or cut off circulation). I said to the ref that they can breathe fine and that move if they turn the other way. The ref said yes and then they would be pinned. I said they have a choice. So because coaches or official complained that is is a choke (Which it is not), they have ruled it illegal/PD. When it is a position that the pressure can be released easily. You are just going to get pinned. 

[GimJustafan]

On 5/18/2023 at 7:39 AM, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

PA, a state known for allowing tough wrestling advises their refs to never allow it even get to the "end point."  It almost always becomes a choke, at least if applied in the manner that it is generally taught.

same in NY 

[GimJustafan]

nfhs-dangerous-moves.pdf

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

15 hours ago, killdozer said:

.Also, It is only a choke because the defensive wrestler is turning into the lock (or away from the offensive wrestlers body) thus causing themselves to not be able to breathe (or cut off circulation). I said to the ref that they can breathe fine and that move if they turn the other way. The ref said yes and then they would be pinned. I said they have a choice. So because coaches or official complained that is is a choke (Which it is not), they have ruled it illegal/PD. When it is a position that the pressure can be released easily. You are just going to get pinned. 

I get where you are coming from, especially if the rule was misapplied and it wasn't an assassin, but also...

Rule 7 section 2 article 4: "No contestant should ever be put in a position where they must forfeit a neutral position,a position of advantage or a fall because of an injury or danger to life or limb."

[killdozer]

18 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

I get where you are coming from, especially if the rule was misapplied and it wasn't an assassin, but also...

Rule 7 section 2 article 4: "No contestant should ever be put in a position where they must forfeit a neutral position,a position of advantage or a fall because of an injury or danger to life or limb."

So any pinning combination can be considered that. I do understand wrestlers safety. But again, you got put there. If nothing was done illegally (ie full choke to get you over.. Which I can actually see with a prolonged assassin or a high flyer) then at that point it is a conscience choice to turn into the hold. We have certain things to look for like armbar off the back, armbar past 90 degrees, chicken wing with arm on the shoulder that is called PD/illegal. Even a half nelson/3.4 nelson can be called PD.
When I was a kid. I was put on my back and in my mind I couldn't breathe, I was saying I couldn't breathe. The ref said to me. "If you can talk clearly you can breathe" Couldn't argue with that point. 

I guess the point is they can release the pressure from that position. Are they closer to getting pinned. Yes. But they can still get out. 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

3 minutes ago, killdozer said:

So any pinning combination can be considered that.

Not really, but I understand what you are saying.  

[red viking]

Illegal. Try to stop it early, when its only potentially dangerous.