Socialized Health Care- Nuts and Bolts Discussion

[JimmySpeaks]

57 minutes ago, red viking said:

You're an idiot to assume that. Who's proposing that here? 

You are.  You’ve given nothing that would make anything different than what’s happening in Canada. Other than “it will be different here” or we won’t cover plastic surgery. They don’t cover it now in Canada.  I at least offered up an opt in/opt out option.  

Edited Wednesday at 01:59 AM by JimmySpeaks

[JimmySpeaks]

58 minutes ago, red viking said:

You're an idiot to assume that. Who's proposing that here? 

I’ve laid out exactly what I think should happen.  You’ve laid out nothing but it’s going to be different.  HOW EXACTLY. 

 

EDIT: I left out that I think dental and vision should be part of healthcare whether it’s private or public. 

[Bigbrog]

18 hours ago, red viking said:

The most inefficient and corrupt system is one where everybody has a right to the services (funded by the govt when they can't afford it themselves at a growing rate) but at the same time, almost 100% of the work is done by private corporations. 

You are 110% guaranteed to get rampant fraud with a system like this. 

Did you read my post??  What problem are you trying to solve and what is your proposed solution to that problem??  Saying "we'd do it different" doesn't answer the questions, nor say anything really. 

[red viking]

1 minute ago, Bigbrog said:

Did you read my post??  What problem are you trying to solve and what is your proposed solution to that problem??  Saying "we'd do it different" doesn't answer the questions, nor say anything really. 

Its very simple. All basic services are provided by the govt. But, if the fatties want to pay out of own pocket for private care, they can do that. Ive said this several times now.  its not complicated. 

Edited Wednesday at 01:54 PM by red viking

[Bigbrog]

1 minute ago, red viking said:

Its very simple. All basic services are provided by the govt. 

Solves what problem???  And how does the government provide all basic services?  And what are those services?  

[red viking]

27 minutes ago, Bigbrog said:

Solves what problem???  And how does the government provide all basic services?  And what are those services?  

Its very simple if you aren't trying to be an idiot. The doctors and nurses work directly for the fed govt. That keeps prices reasonable and minimizes fraud. 

Essential amd preventative is what I mean by basic. Not gonna waste my time going down another dumb winger rabbit hole to define every single one. 

[Scouts Honor]

49 minutes ago, red viking said:

Its very simple. All basic services are provided by the govt. But, if the fatties want to pay out of own pocket for private care, they can do that. Ive said this several times now.  its not complicated. 

which govt?

and you think anything the GOVT does is efficient?

not filled with corruption?

run better than a private company? 

The USPS used to be the only govt program that was self sustaining. it no longer is.

why is that? 

[red viking]

4 minutes ago, Scouts Honor said:

which govt?

and you think anything the GOVT does is efficient?

not filled with corruption?

run better than a private company? 

The USPS used to be the only govt program that was self sustaining. it no longer is.

why is that? 

Yes; it would be run be run much better, if govt is paying for so many medical services already anyway. For the 3rd time now, its the perfect recipe for fraud when you have the govt guaranteeing and paying for services for so many people anyway, but the private corporations are the ones getting reimbursed by the govt for performing these services. Fraud would probably be < 1/10th of what it currently is with the fat and greedy corporations all trying to rip everybody off. 

You wingers want to continue to pay for Medicare and for emergency services for poor people. If you want the govt to pay for it anyway, get the grubby hands of the insurance companies and other profit-seeking corporations (all trying to maximize their cut) out of the picture. 

Your argument about USPS is just plain stupid. They have a deficit because they haven't charged customers enough over the years, given their expenses. They're TOO good of a bargain and we don't deserve to get the services we get from them for so dirt cheap.   

[Bigbrog]

1 hour ago, red viking said:

Its very simple if you aren't trying to be an idiot. The doctors and nurses work directly for the fed govt. That keeps prices reasonable and minimizes fraud. 

Essential amd preventative is what I mean by basic. Not gonna waste my time going down another dumb winger rabbit hole to define every single one. 

This is exactly why I don't ever try to have any semblance of a constructive back and forth with you. But this is on me as I knew you wouldn't be able to. 

Get some help

[wrestlingguy]

1 hour ago, red viking said:

Its very simple if you aren't trying to be an idiot. The doctors and nurses work directly for the fed govt. That keeps prices reasonable and minimizes fraud. 

Essential amd preventative is what I mean by basic. Not gonna waste my time going down another dumb winger rabbit hole to define every single one. 

Have you factored in the cost of a government pensions for all doctors and nurses? That is a huge cost. I would also think their wages would be less if their salaries are coming from tax dollars. 

[red viking]

15 minutes ago, wrestlingguy said:

Have you factored in the cost of a government pensions for all doctors and nurses? That is a huge cost. I would also think their wages would be less if their salaries are coming from tax dollars. 

They should get a competitive overall compensation package. Enough to attract quslified doctors and nurses. Its that simple.  The specifics of how high the wages vs benefits are arent a concern to me. 

[Scouts Honor]

1 hour ago, red viking said:

Yes; it would be run be run much better, if govt is paying for so many medical services already anyway. For the 3rd time now, its the perfect recipe for fraud when you have the govt guaranteeing and paying for services for so many people anyway, but the private corporations are the ones getting reimbursed by the govt for performing these services. Fraud would probably be < 1/10th of what it currently is with the fat and greedy corporations all trying to rip everybody off. 

 

i agree with much of this.

however, it's obamacare that caused the fraud

we were told premiums would go down, they did not.

b/c as you said... humans are part of the equation

[Scouts Honor]

1 hour ago, red viking said:

 

You wingers want to continue to pay for Medicare and for emergency services for poor people. If you want the govt to pay for it anyway, get the grubby hands of the insurance companies and other profit-seeking corporations (all trying to maximize their cut) out of the picture. 

 

you dont want to pay for the poor?

 

[Scouts Honor]

1 hour ago, red viking said:

ave a deficit because they haven't charged customers enough over the years, given their expenses. They're TOO good of a bargain and we don't deserve to get the services we get from them for so dirt cheap.   

i have an issue with this.

i could agree, that stamps could go up, but to say overall they haven't charged enough...

maybe mass mailing discounts etc

but you need to look at the way it's been run 

not to mention that bush, now a famous liberal, made them pay their pensions.

and union pensions were/are crazy... 

[red viking]

17 minutes ago, Scouts Honor said:

i have an issue with this.

i could agree, that stamps could go up, but to say overall they haven't charged enough...

maybe mass mailing discounts etc

but you need to look at the way it's been run 

not to mention that bush, now a famous liberal, made them pay their pensions.

and union pensions were/are crazy... 

If they were promised a pension when they were hired, they get the pension. You cant hire somebody with a promise of compensation and then renig several years later. 

[red viking]

40 minutes ago, Scouts Honor said:

not to mention that bush, now a famous liberal....

 

This is a classic problem with the wingers. You've literally gone off the deep end to the right. It isn't Bush that's changed; it's the entire winger movement. Complete lunatic whack jobs. 

[wrestlingguy]

24 minutes ago, red viking said:

This is a classic problem with the wingers. You've literally gone off the deep end to the right. It isn't Bush that's changed; it's the entire winger movement. Complete lunatic whack jobs. 

No offense, but coming from you that doesn't mean much. 

[Doublehalf]

22 hours ago, Bigbrog said:

Great topic and discussion, for the most part.  I'd ask, what problem are "we" trying to solve?  I hear a lot of solutioning without anyone stating clearly the problem that needs to be solved nor any root causes, and "insurance companies bad" is not a root cause. 

To say the system is "broken" is to vague...same for "it cost to much"...define what broken means and explain how and where and how often it is broken based on that definition.  Then I think "we" could get somewhere to make it better. IMHO

Personally I don't think it's "broken" but could be improved upon. 

I will make problems that I think exist in the current system but there will certainly be many I am forgetting (I look at this from a broader healthcare care/health system and procedural/surgical lens):

- Medically necessary care that people cannot afford and in turn going bankrupt. Cost to people on these plans between copyas, premiums, deductibles etc... are astronomical 

- Deductible system overloads operating rooms and schedules in hospitals at the end of the year "so people can get in their care" before it resets- this is patently ridiculous 

-Insurance landscape: differing reimbursements for different regions, medically necessary treatment being denied, in network vs out of network, not allowed to pick any physician you want based on insurance, insurance carriers monopolizing specific regions and holding health systems hostage

- vendor pricing and contracts being subject to group purchasing organizations for contracts which in turn creates certain devices and products used for surgery not allowable thus if they are purchased they are at exorbitant  costs to the hospital. This is a direct example of "the best care" not being given because hospitals are concerned with the bottom line

- Health systems buying up all physician owned practices which prevents physicians from being able to operate at certain facilities. You can either pick a doc or a hospital but not both

- Nursing shortages, often due to long hours and low wages, many have left the profession. Many that are left are not the best and brightest 
 

- tied into the above, because healthcare cost is so high now, many patients treat staff as if they are waiters and waitresses demanding outrageous requests outside of the job responsibilities 

- Vendors incentivizing hospitals to do robotic surgeries for simple procedures like appendectomies. The result being exorbitant procedure cost to the hospital but they are locked in because of contractual agreements that force them too based on wants and needs of the few 

- Health insurance being tied to employers is a catalyst for a system of indentured servitude to working. For those that either can't or chooose not to work, open market insurance is outrageous 

- You have examples of insurance carriers owning and operating the care facilities they provide reimbursement to which should be illegal full stop 

- There are already long wait times for certain surgical procedures 

- When government funding doesn't pass health systems are beyond stressed financially. We are already in  system of the government subsidizing care but on the flip side we are also getting crushed by the cost of it. We would be better off in a fully capitalistic system than the in between we are in now. We are getting the worst of both sides of the system currently

- I can assure you there are already very bad physicians that practice and operate on people and maybe you have already had one without knowing. 
 

- new and novel procedures aren't able to be performed for patients that need it until a critical mass of patients are being denied the care and appeal carriers to pay for the treatment. Hospitals won't even adopt certain new treatments because they aren't covered by insurance. You think you are getting great care today but often times that is far from the case and methods being used for some surgeries are far from the standard of care in some cases and way over the top for others 

[JimmySpeaks]

4 hours ago, red viking said:

Yes; it would be run be run much better, if govt is paying for so many medical services already anyway. For the 3rd time now, its the perfect recipe for fraud when you have the govt guaranteeing and paying for services for so many people anyway, but the private corporations are the ones getting reimbursed by the govt for performing these services. Fraud would probably be < 1/10th of what it currently is with the fat and greedy corporations all trying to rip everybody off. 

You wingers want to continue to pay for Medicare and for emergency services for poor people. If you want the govt to pay for it anyway, get the grubby hands of the insurance companies and other profit-seeking corporations (all trying to maximize their cut) out of the picture. 

Your argument about USPS is just plain stupid. They have a deficit because they haven't charged customers enough over the years, given their expenses. They're TOO good of a bargain and we don't deserve to get the services we get from them for so dirt cheap.   

The usps has a deficit because of…… 

- high labor and compensation costs which is 75-80% of total operating expenses. 
- because there’s a mandate called the universal services obligation that says the usps is legally required to deliver mail to 168 million addresses six days per week.  
- collapsing first class mail volume.  Technology has cut first class mail volume in half. First class mail used to subsidize the postal network. 

Edited Wednesday at 07:19 PM by JimmySpeaks

[red viking]

4 minutes ago, JimmySpeaks said:

The usps has a deficit because of…… 

- high labor and compensation costs which is 75-80% of total operating expenses. 
- because there’s a mandate called the universal services obligation that says the usps is legally required to deliver mail to 168 million addresses six days per week.  
- collapsing first class mail volume.  Technology has cut first class mail volume in half. First class mail used to subsidize the postal network. 

110% b.s. I knew a couple mailmen and they busted their butts. One of them quit becsuse it wasnt worth the crap pay. 

They should raise their fees to match expenses, regardless of # of delivery days, employee pay, or drop in volume. Its very simple. Money coming in needs to match money going out. 

 

[Rassling]

5 hours ago, red viking said:

Its very simple if you aren't trying to be an idiot. The doctors and nurses work directly for the fed govt. That keeps prices reasonable and minimizes fraud. 

Essential amd preventative is what I mean by basic. Not gonna waste my time going down another dumb winger rabbit hole to define every single one. 

you know some times you put up a few good posts but then you steal your own thunder by tossing in a few words like idiot, dumb, wingers, etc. 

[Bigbrog]

1 hour ago, Doublehalf said:

I will make problems that I think exist in the current system but there will certainly be many I am forgetting (I look at this from a broader healthcare care/health system and procedural/surgical lens):

- Medically necessary care that people cannot afford and in turn going bankrupt. Cost to people on these plans between copyas, premiums, deductibles etc... are astronomical 

- Deductible system overloads operating rooms and schedules in hospitals at the end of the year "so people can get in their care" before it resets- this is patently ridiculous 

-Insurance landscape: differing reimbursements for different regions, medically necessary treatment being denied, in network vs out of network, not allowed to pick any physician you want based on insurance, insurance carriers monopolizing specific regions and holding health systems hostage

- vendor pricing and contracts being subject to group purchasing organizations for contracts which in turn creates certain devices and products used for surgery not allowable thus if they are purchased they are at exorbitant  costs to the hospital. This is a direct example of "the best care" not being given because hospitals are concerned with the bottom line

- Health systems buying up all physician owned practices which prevents physicians from being able to operate at certain facilities. You can either pick a doc or a hospital but not both

- Nursing shortages, often due to long hours and low wages, many have left the profession. Many that are left are not the best and brightest 
 

- tied into the above, because healthcare cost is so high now, many patients treat staff as if they are waiters and waitresses demanding outrageous requests outside of the job responsibilities 

- Vendors incentivizing hospitals to do robotic surgeries for simple procedures like appendectomies. The result being exorbitant procedure cost to the hospital but they are locked in because of contractual agreements that force them too based on wants and needs of the few 

- Health insurance being tied to employers is a catalyst for a system of indentured servitude to working. For those that either can't or chooose not to work, open market insurance is outrageous 

- You have examples of insurance carriers owning and operating the care facilities they provide reimbursement to which should be illegal full stop 

- There are already long wait times for certain surgical procedures 

- When government funding doesn't pass health systems are beyond stressed financially. We are already in  system of the government subsidizing care but on the flip side we are also getting crushed by the cost of it. We would be better off in a fully capitalistic system than the in between we are in now. We are getting the worst of both sides of the system currently

- I can assure you there are already very bad physicians that practice and operate on people and maybe you have already had one without knowing. 
 

- new and novel procedures aren't able to be performed for patients that need it until a critical mass of patients are being denied the care and appeal carriers to pay for the treatment. Hospitals won't even adopt certain new treatments because they aren't covered by insurance. You think you are getting great care today but often times that is far from the case and methods being used for some surgeries are far from the standard of care in some cases and way over the top for others 

Thank you... good post 

[JimmySpeaks]

26 minutes ago, red viking said:

110% b.s. I knew a couple mailmen and they busted their butts. One of them quit becsuse it wasnt worth the crap pay. 

They should raise their fees to match expenses, regardless of # of delivery days, employee pay, or drop in volume. Its very simple. Money coming in needs to match money going out. 

 

Look it up skippy.  The post office is becoming obsolete and should be heavily downsized. Good place to save billions. 

[JimmySpeaks]

28 minutes ago, red viking said:

110% b.s. I knew a couple mailmen and they busted their butts. One of them quit becsuse it wasnt worth the crap pay. 

They should raise their fees to match expenses, regardless of # of delivery days, employee pay, or drop in volume. Its very simple. Money coming in needs to match money going out. 

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=why+does+the+usps+have+a+deficit&rlz=1C9BKJA_enUS1057US1057&oq=&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqCQgGECMYJxjqAjIJCAAQIxgnGOoCMgkIARAjGCcY6gIyCQgCECMYJxjqAjIJCAMQIxgnGOoCMgkIBBAjGCcY6gIyCQgFECMYJxjqAjIJCAYQIxgnGOoCMgkIBxAjGCcY6gIyCQgIEC4YJxjqAjIJCAkQIxgnGOoCMgkIChAjGCcY6gIyDwgLEAAYQhi0AhjqAhjbBTIPCAwQABhCGLQCGOoCGNsFMg8IDRAAGEIYtAIY6gIY2wUyDwgOEAAYQhi0AhjqAhjbBTIRCA8QABgDGEIYjwEYtAIY6gIyEQgQEAAYAxhCGI8BGLQCGOoCMhEIERAAGAMYQhiPARi0AhjqAjIRCBIQABgDGEIYjwEYtAIY6gIyEQgTEAAYAxhCGI8BGLQCGOoC0gEGLTFqMGo3qAIUsAIB4gMEGAEgX_EF11FMebSjwQw&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&source=chrome.ob&ie=UTF-8#lfId=ChxjMe

[red viking]

2 minutes ago, JimmySpeaks said:

https://www.google.com/search?q=why+does+the+usps+have+a+deficit&rlz=1C9BKJA_enUS1057US1057&oq=&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqCQgGECMYJxjqAjIJCAAQIxgnGOoCMgkIARAjGCcY6gIyCQgCECMYJxjqAjIJCAMQIxgnGOoCMgkIBBAjGCcY6gIyCQgFECMYJxjqAjIJCAYQIxgnGOoCMgkIBxAjGCcY6gIyCQgIEC4YJxjqAjIJCAkQIxgnGOoCMgkIChAjGCcY6gIyDwgLEAAYQhi0AhjqAhjbBTIPCAwQABhCGLQCGOoCGNsFMg8IDRAAGEIYtAIY6gIY2wUyDwgOEAAYQhi0AhjqAhjbBTIRCA8QABgDGEIYjwEYtAIY6gIyEQgQEAAYAxhCGI8BGLQCGOoCMhEIERAAGAMYQhiPARi0AhjqAjIRCBIQABgDGEIYjwEYtAIY6gIyEQgTEAAYAxhCGI8BGLQCGOoC0gEGLTFqMGo3qAIUsAIB4gMEGAEgX_EF11FMebSjwQw&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&source=chrome.ob&ie=UTF-8#lfId=ChxjMe

Those are actually the reasons why they need to increase their fees. There's nothing stopping the federal govt from doing that. It boils down to the fact that the wingers control all 3 branches of govt and between the pedo-controlled PRC and Congress, the USPS isn't being given the authority to do that. 

It's a wonderful life when your political party can force an agency to get by on very limited funding while mandating they continue to perform the status quo services and then also blame them they can't balance their budget. But the dumb wingers will drink whatever Kool Aid their propaganda machine feeds them.