fishbane

4 minutes ago, Gus said:

Coleman Scott

Jamil Kelly is probably the top wrestler John Smith coached (I don't think he's coached an Olympic gold medalist) and his best finish in high school was 4th at the state tournament.

1 minute ago, MPhillips said:

Welcome to the club...

Haha,  I was thinking the same thing and was about to use Tom Ryan/Ohio State as an example.  Coaches don't get enough credit when top recruits pan out.  What Cael has done turning top recruits into all-time greats is highly abnormal.

45 minutes ago, H82Lose said:

Smith WAS a great coach.  Back in the day, EVERYONE knew who JS was, and his accomplishments. These young bucks weren't alive when he was winning the olympics.  Go look at Lovett on his recruiting.  He didn't know JS, but he knew Jordan Burroughs. 

Ridge Lovett might not have, but in Oklahoma everyone still knows about John Smith. Outside of OK he might not have the same name recognition he once enjoyed with high school wrestlers, but what OSU alum surpasses him in that regard?  Possibly Cormeir or Hendricks for entirely different reasons than Burroughs.

3 hours ago, Cowboy08 said:

5 titles..........in 30 years but 4 of them were in a row as part of a dynasty when he was coaching a group of all time great cowboys.  Smith's coaching is honestly overrated IMHO, It just goes to show what Cael has done, and so quickly, is absolutely unheard of. 

You make it sounds like 4 in a row with all-time greats is a knock against Smith.  Literally no coach has won more than 4 in a row since the scholarship limit changed to 9.9.  Not even Cael and Gable.  And 4 titles alone would be good enough to be the 3rd best NCAA program of the past 50 years behind Iowa and Penn State.  No program outside of those two have won 4 or more total titles in the past 50 years.  OSU only won 3 outside of this dynasty.

All coaches in the 9.9 scholarship era with multiple NCAA titles won at least back-to-back titles followed by a drought.  The only ones that were able to win more than 1 outside of their big streak was Gable and Sanderson.  Brands won 3 in a row with an all-time great recruiting class followed by an 11 year drought before getting his 4th.  Zalesky won 3 in a row and then never again.  J. Rob was back-to-back titles and 5 years later after OSU's dynasty won another.  

Smith is literally the 3rd greatest coach of the past half century.  He's 5th all time in individual national champions with 33. Only Gable (45), Nichols (38), Gallagher (37), and Cael (34) have more.  It's a rate of more than 1 per year, which is better than Brands, better than Jay Robinson, better than Rob Koll, better than Bobby Douglas, better than Tom Ryan, better than any PSU coach outside of Cael, better than any Iowa coach outside of Gable.  Only 5 programs have more individual national champions than Smith has coached (OSU, Iowa, ISU, OU, and PSU).  It's more champions that storied programs like Lehigh, Minnesota, Michigan, Cornell, and Ohio State have in their entire history.

Smith has coached 150 AAs which is 3rd all time behind only Nichols (156) and Gable (152).  It's an average of nearly 5 per year (4.84).  It's more AAs than in the history of Cornell, Illinois, Wisconsin, Arizona State, and Nebraska.

30 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Gable was head coach for 20 years, correct? 152 out of 200 possible all-Americans ain't bad! 

(If its 152 in 20)

I believe Gable coached for 21 years as he won 21 Big Ten team championships.  21 for 21 in Big Ten championships is a remarkable accomplishment and something unlikely ever to be equalled.  Back to AAs that would make for 152/210 or 72.4% for Gable.  Cael has 90 in 160 or 56.3%.  Either is an exceptional rate.  Though Cael's is slightly inflated because of the oddball 2020 AA standard.  Gable's may be considered slightly inflated because of higher scholarship limits.  Currently the max is 9.9 for wrestling and it used to be 11.  It was reduced by 10% sometime between the 1992-1993 and 1994-1995 seasons.  Now the NIL might more than make up for the 10% difference in scholarship, but at least at this point Gable had more season with 11 scholarships than Cael had with NIL.

Just now, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

What about % of starters to all-American?

Not sure on that, but Sanderson is 6th all time in individual AAs.

1) Harold Nichols 156
2) Dan Gable 152
3) John Smith 150
4) Jay Robinson 124
5) Bobby Douglas 110
6) Cael Sanderson 90

The totals for Sanderson and Smith probably include 2020 no tournament AAs.

On 12/24/2022 at 9:36 AM, Cowboy08 said:

Jim Zalesky was fired at Iowa after winning 3 National Titles. We haven't won one in almost 20 years. I'm sorry but 5 National Titles in 33 years when 4 of them came in one stretch isn't that great for arguably the best program in wrestling history.

In the 20 years before Smith got the job, OSU had only won 2 national team titles.  Smith has done a lot better than that and college wrestling has changed significantly since the OSU dominated the sport in the 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, and 60s.

Really what coach has done better in the last 50 years?  It a short list.  Gable 15 national titles, Sanderson 9 national titles, Nichols 6 national titles, Smith 5 national titles.  The reality is that when OSU hires a replacement he will likely not do as well...  very few have.

Cael has had enjoyed some unprecedented success at Penn State and the total individual NCAA champions he's produced has really accumulated.  To date he has coached 32 individual NCAA champions at PSU.  This is one fewer than John Smith coached at OSU and he became the head coach there in 1991.  Cael only got the PSU job in 2009.  Adding in the two champions he coached at ISU, Cael is at 34 and ahead of Smith despite starting 15 years later.

The only coaches with more individual NCAA champions than Cael are Ed Gallagher (OSU 37), Harold Nichols (ISU 38), and Dan Gable (Iowa 45).  Cael has 4 wrestlers currently ranked #1 by the #1 ranking service, Intermat, and a 5th wrestler that's a returning national champion.  It seems possible that Cael will move into 2nd on the all-time list behind only Dan Gable this season.  Cael has a realistic shot at catching Gable by 2024-2025, which is crazy.  Cael's averaged 4.2 individual NCAA champions over the past 5 tournaments and he's only 11 back.  The 5 title contenders he currently has on the squad (RBY, Starocci, Brooks, Dean, and Kerkvliet) have 10 combined years of eligibility remaining including this season going through the 2024-2025 season.  2024-2025 will be Cael's 19th season as a head coach which would be 2 fewer than Gable's term at Iowa.

What do you think the all-time list will look like at the end of the season?  The end of the 2025 season?  Can John Smith get 4 more champions to match Gallagher's school record?