fishbane

Joe Seay at OSU.

Recently saw the PSU football season ticket prices.  I was surprised to see a "mandatory contribution" for almost all season ticket prices that represents 20-50% of the total price. Is this standard practice in college football? 

My instinct is to think this is either a tactic to get fans to pay a higher price by making 20-50% of the purchase price tax deductible or it's an attempt to artificially move gameday ticket revenue to donations.  It is my understanding that under the house settlement ticket revenue is included in the revenue share, but not donations.

41 minutes ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

Awesome stuff. A recent example that comes to mind though is Gable Steveson. Not that Minny is a crummy program by any means, but Gable was a generational talent but I don't think he propelled the program into the mix with the big three (or maybe he did, Idk how much separation there was pointswise between UMN and the top schools while he was there).

It's probably not realistic to expect a generational talent to commit to a school without a great coach, but I hope one of the upcoming hs phenoms does it so we can see this play out.

Yeah I didn't pick him because MN is an AA factory of sorts.  Here are MN finishes under Eggum with teams featuring Steveson in bold 7th, 17th, 8th, COVID, 7th, 11th, 15th, 22nd, 5th.  Another heavyweight example might be Gwiz at NC State.  He transferred with his coach so it is a little difficult to isolate the two. 

Any given year there are probably 20 teams that are one Cael Sandreson/Gable Steveson/Ben Askren/Cary Kolat away from being a top ten team, because just getting one of them is a huge piece.  In all the examples of great coach to lesser program (Koll/Cornell/Stanford/UNC, Zalesky/Oregon State, Brands/VT, Flynn/WVU, Ryan/Hofstra) none had a top 10 team within 5 years though some left after only 2 years.  It seems likely that Brands would have had a top 10 team within 5 years at VT if he had stayed.  Slaton, LeClere, Metcalf, and Borschel had near 10th place points their first year wrestling for Iowa.  The question today would be if Brands could have landed those guys if Zalesky had access to Bob Nicolls $$ to make NIL deals.

On 7/17/2025 at 2:57 PM, CHROMEBIRD said:

Thanks for those takes, @fishbane - that's interesting stuff. My instinct tells me that, if given a choice, spending the money on a GOAT coach is a better investment than a GOAT wrestler because a coach can instill a long-term culture, build a deep recruiting pipeline, and develop talent. They may also have more leverage with the AD to keep the sport well-funded for the long haul. But you make good points for the value of superstar athletes. Look at how Caitlin Clark changed wbb at Iowa.

In pro sports, star players definitely fill seats and move merch, but I also think that there's less risk to splurging on "big pro sport" talent these days since we are in the moneyball era and unknowns about performance, fit within a system, etc. are mitigated to an extent; whereas in college wrestling we don't have similar quantifiable reassurances to fall back on. 

Imo though, a big reason for the salary disparity between the best players and coaches in the NBA comes down to basic supply & demand. Sports like basketball cast such a huge net that there are tons of great coaching candidates who could step in anytime and be very successful with whatever roster they are given. Maybe not so much with college wrestling, where the shortlist of elite coaches like Gable, Cael, maybe Taylor/JB/Dake/Nolf, etc. to choose from is a pretty small pool, esp relative to the # of teams. The market also prices coaches based on different metrics than players. Even under the CBA, athletes leverage their own stats and free agency to command premium salaries; opportunities for coaches, otoh, are tied more to overall team success (or the movement or firing of coaches elsewhere).

I can see how guys like Spencer and Taylor have created or reinforced a winning culture and opened new doors for recruiting and other stuff, but at the end of the day I think top wrestlers are still drawn to a program and a coach, not just a big bag. The converse might also be true, but in theory a top coach could take raw talent and develop a kid into something good, whereas star athletes don't really develop coaches.

I think if there is money in the budget for wrestlers too then the obvious choice is to get the coach first.  It will make everything easier.  If there isn't much money for wrestler acquisition on top of paying the coaching staff then a coach will only be able to do so much with a 4 year horizon.  On the other hand the GOAT wrestler will provide immediate success which could be built upon.  Cael Sanderson the wrestler was good for 27 team points at NCAAs.  That would have been good enough for 16th this year at NCAAs.  

Over the past 30 or so years there have been a handful of examples of a really great wrestler going to a less storied program.  Not to downplay the roll of the coaching staff at these institutions, but the exceptional wrestler made a huge impact in every situation.

1) Ben Askren to Missouri

Not Cael Sanderson, but a bonus point machine in his own right that made 4 NCAA finals and won 1 hodge trophies.  Before he arrived in Columbia coach Brian Smith had 1 AA in 4 seasons.  By the time Askren graduated that number had grown to 14.  Missouri had their first ever national champ and the best ever team finish at NCAAs (3rd).

2) Cary Kolat's transfer to Lock Haven

The year before Kolat transferred Lock Haven had 0 AAs and hadn't had a national champ in 25+ years.  The two seasons he was there they would have 3 AAs followed by 5 AAs, win the PSAC 2x, the EWL once, and achieve their best ever team finish at NCAAs (5th).

3) TJ Jaworsky transfer to UNC

Maybe a tier below the last two Jaworsky still won 3 NCAA titles and Hodge at UNC.  The year before Jawosrsky arrived UNC was 18th with 1 AA who was graduating.  He was their only AA in 1993 when they finished 15th.  The next two years they had 4AAs/season finishing 6th and 8th.  Two of only 5 top 10 finishes in program history.  Jaworsky accounted for 3 individual NCAA titles at a program that had only had 2 in their history before him.

4) Ricky Bonomo Bloomsburg

He won three titles for Bloomsburg from 1985-1987.  Aided by his brother Rocky this propelled Bloomsburg to finish 10th, 7th, and 5th at NCAAs.  These are the only top 10 finishes in program history.

5) Greg Jones West Virginia

Jones won individual titles in 2002, 2004, and 2005.  Though he wasn't the bonus point machine like the others he rarely lost (128-4) and WV finished 13th, 17th, 16th and 18th at NCAAs with him in the lineup.  Since he graduated WV wouldn't finish as high until the past two seasons (17th and 18th).

6) Jake Herbert Northwestern

Before Jake Herbert placed 3rd in 2005, Northwestern had not had an AA in 5 years.  With him in the lineup they would finished 14th, 13th, 4th, and 13th in the team standings.  The 4th place finish tied their best ever.  His Hodge Trophy was their first in program history and his two NCAA titles the first since 1990.  More would follow with Tsirtsis and Fox winning in subsequent years.

There are a few other examples of wrestlers of a similar level at a small program in the last 30 years.  Haslerig at Pitt-Johnstown and Abas at Fresno state.  I didn't look too deep into these two.  Haselrig was at a D2 program and it was hard to find information on the Fresno program history as they subsequently dropped the program.  The 6 in the list are probably the closest to Cael Sanderson the wrestler at a tier 2 D1 program.  The impact of Cael Sanderson the wrestler could be even bigger.

Looking at WV and UNC might give some insight into this question because they are two programs that recently got great coaches.  WV has Tim Flynn at the helm who did an outstanding job at Edinboro.  In his 6th year at WV they finally broke into the top 20 at NCAAs (17th).  With Greg Jones in the lineup this was all but guaranteed and Flynn has not equaled the best finish of the Jones years (13th) or produced a national champion through 7 seasons.   UNC now has Rob Koll as the head coach.  He's only been there two years, but with two years of TJ Jaworksy UNC was a top 10 team with a national champion.  It would be truly impressive in Koll is able to get them into the top 10 within 4 years.  They have not been in the top 10 since Jaworsky graduated and great coaches at less storied programs (Koll/Cornell/Stanford/UNC, Zalesky/Oregon State, Brands/VT, Flynn/WVU, Ryan/Hofstra) take time to find success.

7 minutes ago, Hilton Head Joe said:

That makes sense! Usually don't have a HC job in D1 wrestling immediately after being fired! Buffalo must be a tough place to coach. The school is nice and highly ranked in allot of academic areas. 

It was Stutzman's alma mater.  He also had success coaching at a former D2 school with less than ideal resources (Bloomsburg).  It made sense for him to leave Bloomsburg for it. 

11 hours ago, Hilton Head Joe said:

Last season? He is listed as the head coach at Bloomsburg this year. That was fast. Buffalo must have not to had a good reason to fire him since he got hired immediately as a D1 coach. Wondering what the story was there. 

Stutzman was the coach at Bloomsburg before taking the Buffalo job.  On reason he spent such a short time unemployed was his history at Bloomsburg and that there was an opening there.  No one after him as had as much success.  An easy decision for Bloomsburg urg to bring him back.

43 minutes ago, forkemaz said:

That guy is an idiot. If he had mutliple cartidges they can get him for intent to sell. Especially as he is bringing it into a state that doesnt allow recreational use. Bringing in cartridges in NOT any different than bringing in bricks except its physically smaller and can only be distributed in the amount of at least one cartridge as opposed to by weights. If Sammt had a bunch of cartridges he might get rail roaded hard.

PA is a patchwork of recreational use.  Nearly all the major cities have decriminalized recreational use.  Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Harrisburg, Allentown, Bethlehem, York, Erie, Lancaster, State College, all of Delaware County have all decriminalized recreational use.  Maybe 25% of residents in the state live where recreational use has been decriminalized.  Some do not realize how different the consequences can be when crossing a county or municipal boundary.

1 hour ago, PortaJohn said:

Antitroll has the best theory so far.  PA and OH have reciprocity with certain conditions for PA

Pennsylvania's Perspective:

Pennsylvania has reciprocity agreements with Ohio, meaning a Pennsylvania resident with an Ohio license can carry in Pennsylvania. 

However, Pennsylvania requires its residents to have a Pennsylvania-issued license to carry concealed within the state, even if they have a valid license from another state with reciprocity, like Ohio. 

My point is that there could be wiggle room if that is the case.  What if someone has a a residence in both OH and PA?  What if he still had a residence in OH and is _in the process_ of moving to PA?  The announcement of his hiring was 19 days ago so it's possible.

And how would the police that pulled him over know that he is a resident of PA?  He had OH tags on the car that were expired.  Did he hand them a PA driver's license?  Or did he talk himself into trouble by saying he had moved to PA?  If the later then he may have just been imprecise in what he said.  If he still has a residence in OH and had been moving stuff to his parent's in preparate to relocate - staying there whilst looking for a place he may not be considered a PA resident yet.

If he doesn't beat the weapon and drug charges then his mistake will likely mean that he cannot get a PA concealed carry permit in the future.

21 hours ago, Antitroll2828 said:

Did the Northwestern guys quit in 2020 before they were fired?

I think they resigned, but weren't they all assistants?  Storniolo is still there.   Storniolo's predecessor Drew Pariano was fired in 2015.

1 hour ago, Antitroll2828 said:

You only have reciprocity with the Ohio permit if you still have an Ohio address , Sammy recently had moved back to PA making his Ohio CC invalid and PA like a lot of states the second a controlled substance is found the CC permit becomes invalid  

Are you sure of the address?  He was only announced to have been hired at Lehigh on 6/30.  When was his start date?   He may have paid rent in Ohio for July.  If he owned a house there it likely has not been sold yet.

If not having an Ohio address is the thing that resulted in the gun charge he likely talked himself into that.  He still had Ohio plates on the car.  If he didn't get around to taking care of the car then he likely still had an OH DL too.  Only way to know the concealed carry might not be good is if he told the officer he moved or he handed over a PA DL, but even that doesn't mean he doesn't he would be unsuccessful arguing otherwise.

You're right that even if he can fix the carry permit problem the drugs would be an issue and result in a gun charge all the same.  If the gun was the basis for the search that discovered the vape pen and it turns out his permit is valid then it might be possible to suppress.

https://jamesgmartin.center/2015/09/i-fought-political-correctness-and-correctness-won/

I think CD Mock was fired from UNC.  He was replaced by his assistant Coleman Scott.

2 hours ago, AgaveMaria said:

All the paranoia over firearms.

He had a carry permit - at least for where he was moving from.

The number of pistols? Nothing odd about it for many. Same if it had been rifles or shotguns. 

Some folks like shooting and have many different rifles, pistols and shotguns. Also ammunition for them. 

Others have firearms in the vehicles as a normal thing. We shoot coyotes, raccoons, skunks and whatnot and generally have a rifle or two in the vehicles. One by the barn has an /06 and the pickup by the grain shed has a good .223.  Jump in and go and you have the rifle with you. Wouldn't leave them in the vehicles if it were in town - at least not laying in the well & on the seat.

The drug stuff tho - Sounds as if Pennsylvania is hard on it - and it is still illegal on the Federal level. 

Expired registration - just stupidity. Does he have active car insurance? 

It's a fine line between some of what he didn't being totally legal or a felony.  Only medical marijuana has been decriminalized statewide.  Recreational marijuana use has been decriminalized in some counties/jurisdictions but not all.  Most of the largest cities have decriminalized it.  This happened in Nazareth.  If it had been in nearby Bethlehem or Allentown recreational quantities have been decriminalized in both of those cities.  Crossing a municipal or county boundary can make a big difference with this. 

In some places you will not get pulled over for an expired registration in PA.  Philadelphia police do not pull cars over for expired registration/inspections under their Driving Equality ordinance.  He'd have to be doing something else to get pulled over in Philly.

There is no requirement to register guns in PA and one can carry openly outside of Philadelphia and Pittsburgh without a permit.  Traveling with a gun in the car he'd either need a carry permit or it would have to be unloaded, separate from the ammo, and in a locked container/trunk.  Not sure if it's true that his Ohio permit is no good in PA.  There should be reciprocity...

https://triblive.com/sports/pitt-sues-former-wrestling-coach-claims-he-manufactured-discrimination-lawsuit/

Jason Peters.

11 minutes ago, Gene Mills Fan said:

maybe cops were running plates to check registrations.

Pulled over for a bad registration still doesn't explain how they found the drugs and gun.  Were they in plain view?

1 minute ago, wrestlingfan22 said:

who is his cousin?

The Tsarnaev brothers.

I believe his older siblings all went to the Air Force Academy. Better to be following in their footsteps than his cousin's I suppose.

1 hour ago, Dogbone said:

So you are really cynical of the only expiation that would give rise to Bo hating DT.    And yet, there is no way that Bo chose 92 that year because he thought he a had a better chance of beating Cox, who had only lost to once before as opposed to DT who had probably handed him numerous defeats in the room?   That boy knew what a healthy DT would do to him.  If he thought 86 was his best weight then he would of went there.  He was scared.  Otherwise he has no reason to be mad at DT about it. 

That's not the only explanation that results in Nickal hating Taylor.  It is just the only reasonable one tied to Taylor's injury and Final X 2019.  Nickal could primarily hate him for other reasons or it could be unreasonable hate. Taylor could have actually been getting second opinions and waiting to see how well he could wrestle in that condition.  He could have given no thought whatsoever to keeping Nickal at 92kg.  Nickal meanwhile had an unreasonable expectation that Taylor should have decided to go under the knife within 10 days of the injury so as to give him enough time to cut weight and change his registration for the WTT.  Spencer Lee had two torn ACLs and he took like 9-10 months to decide to have surgery.  Taylor was supposed to make this decision in 9-10 days because it would better suit Nickal?  That's unreasonable.

It's possible Nickal thought he had a better chance at beating Cox.  I wouldn't expect it to be his primary motivation for going 92kg vs 86kg or 97kg. I don't know that your conjecture about what happens in the room really matters.  Yianni Diakomihalis had said the first time he had ever beaten Jordan Oliver in a wrestling competition of any kind even 1 min situations in the room was in the semifinals of the US Open in 2019.  I would guess that Nickal primarily was interested in maintaining his training situation in 2019 and thought that the ability to train with Taylor for another year would give him the best shot at making the Olympic team.

41 minutes ago, Dogbone said:

World Teams is different than doing whats best for the team lineup.  Carter didn't try and go 74KG out of respect for Brooks.   Just like Nickal wasn't avoiding all NLWC guys, just Taylor it seems. 

If Nickal didn't go his best weight then that's on him.   He was probably just scared of a healthy DT and is mad that DT wasn't healthy but doesn't have the ability to be accountable for his own decision so he is lashing out at DT. 

I don't think Nickal was scared of Taylor in 2019.  Nickal was coming off a season at 197lbs and he weighed 92kg. Whether he picked 86, 92, or 97kg the path wasn't going to be easy.  The options were 86kg/David Taylor, 92kg/J'den Cox, and 97kg/Kyle Snyder.  Nickal was scared of Taylor so he went 92Kg where he'd have to beat Cox?  Cox had beaten DT for the 86kg spot in 2017 and won the world title at 92kg in 2018.  Making that choice out of fear of Taylor doesn't make much sense. 

NLWC didn't really have anyone at 92kg or 97kg that freestyle season.  Kyle Snyder was still at Ohio RTC.  Their only 92kg was Riley Lefever who wasn't a PSU alum and wasn't among the favorites to contend for the spot.  Nickal had some kind of training relationship with Taylor, but maybe less so with Lefever.  Taylor took him to Budapest as his training partner in 2018. Going 86kg means you have to beat the world champ and Taylor isn't going to be practicing with you or helping you anymore.  Staying at 92kg you still have to beat a world champ that is just as good, but you get to practice with David Taylor everyday.

The idea that Taylor had definitely decided he wasn't wrestling at Final X between his injury at BTS (May 6) and the start of the WTT (May 17) and intentionally withheld that information so that Nickal wouldn't give up his bye at 92kg and cut down always seemed really cynical to me.  Taylor barely had time to get some opinions and assess what he was capable of doing.   If Taylor actually did that and told Nickal that's what he did then Nickal has the right to be upset about it.

12 hours ago, bnwtwg said:

That is extremely false. The OKC Thunder this year, the Celtics last year, and the Spurs dynasty were all built on homegrown talent. Victor Wembenyana (VW) recently had this to say in an interview with Maxime Aubin (MA):

Nothing you said contradicted anything I said.  Your point seems to be that building through the draft is preferred in professional sports.  That is probably true for the NBA and to a lesser extent some of the other leagues, but I never said anything about how the players were acquired just that that's where the money should be spent.  Furthermore, there is also no draft mechanism (currently) in NCAA sports so it is not an option.  NCAA GMs/coaches can only sign free agents.

Regardless of how the players are acquired, Draft or free agency, they have far more negotiating power than the coaches in the NBA and all top professional leagues. The highest paid NBA players get ~$60 million/year and the highest paid coaches ~$17M.  If you order all the players and coaches by annual salary no coach would be in the top 100.  The salaries of the top players are artificially suppressed by the CBA, but there is no CBA for coaches. Teams are free to pay a coach whatever they want and whatever the market determines.  Coaches that have won multiple championships; Greg Popovich, Steve Kerr, Erik Spoelstra, only make ~$15-17M.  If hiring the best coach was the path to a championship these guys would command more for their services.  

The ceiling for coaches' salaries in the NBA is where it is because they are largely replaceable.  The Boston Celtics are an example of this.  The coach is replaceable whilst the star players - Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown are not.  The Celtics initially acquired the duo with Brad Stevens as the coach and they were very good. Made the conference finals twice with them in the lineup.  Then when Stevens was elevated to GM one of his former assistant coaches who had never been a head coach in the NBA before, Ime Udoka, took them to the NBA finals in his first season.  Udoka then left to go to the Rockets where he has yet to make it past the first round of the playoffs and one of his assistants, Joe Mazzulla, became head coach.  Mazzulla had never been a head coach before and in his second season the Celtics won the NBA championship.  There is a reason Tatum and Brown are each paid $50M+/year and Mazzulla ~$5M.  Their relative salaries are easily explained; replacing Mazzulla is relatively easy, but replacing Tatum or Brown would be very difficult and costly.

Getting a Cael Sanderson type player in the NBA would be even better than either Tatum or Brown.  It would be one of the GOATS.  It would be more like a LeBron James.  James has taken teams to the NBA finals under 5 different coaches.  When he left Cleveland the first time the Cavs went from having the league's best record to winning 19 games with a roster largely unchanged apart from James.  When he left the second time, a team largely unchanged from the one that had lost in the NBA finals, apart from James, again won only 19 games.  LeBron James was the difference between being one of the best teams in the league and winning only 19 of 82 games twice.

There are probably more meaningful ways for someone to exceed Sanderson's NCAA career than just winning one more match. One more win is a record but doesn't more the needle much.  

Sanderson was perfect.  One could win 5 NCAA titles.  Have an undefeated redshirt season.  Undefeated 4xer without a redshirt.  Win 4 Hodge trophies.  Outscore Sanderson at NCAAs (107.5 team points).  Win a world/Olympic title in college.  All those those things can be done wrestling a modern schedule.

54 minutes ago, TNwrestling said:

Well....

Ok St threw money at the coach and got the wrestlers....

Iowa threw money at the wrestler and he decommited and is likely going to the aforementioned team...

I'm going with coach.

The thing is that the only teams with money to throw are throwing it at both coaches and wrestlers.  OSU has some of the highest paid coaches and wrestlers.  Same story at Iowa and PSU.  The question is if you only have room in the budget for one.  Would David Taylor be getting the top recruits at OSU if he was given a shoestring budget for wrestler acquisition?

On 7/13/2025 at 3:44 PM, 11986 said:

Rohn and Trenge for Lehigh in 2002 was another good 1-2 (and that's what they placed that year). Of their 9 combined wins at that tournament, 7 were pins. 

They had the best single combined NCAA tournament of any Lehigh duo, but several are in contention for best 1-2.  The next closest in terms of team point production at a single tournament were Mark Lieberman and Mike Brown in 1979.  On the year Brown and Liberman were more impressive. Brown was 21-3 with 15 bonus wins and Lieberman 21-0 with 20 bonus wins, whilst Rohn was 30-5 with 18 bonus wins and Trenge 34-4 with 17 bonus wins. Rohn had a great NCAA tournament but came in the as 8 seed. Lieberman was the 1 seed, and Brown and Trenge were both 2 seeds.

Caruso and Pertiore are probably the best Lehigh 1-2 over the course of a career.  Caruso won three titles at 123 and Petitore went 2-2-3 up a weight at 130 during the same period.  Petriore's first two years he lost to Uetake in the final.  His senior year he was the 1 seed and was upset by David McGuire who went on to win the tournament.  Caruso and Peritore only lost 6 matches combined in their career and each had winning pct. over 90%.  They were also back to back in the lineup 3/3 years which is more than Lieberman and Brown (3/4), and Rohn and Trenge (2/4).  Probably the best Lehigh 1-2 punch all things considered.

2002: Rob Rohn (1st 184), John Trenge (2nd 197); Total (28+23=51)
1979: Mark Lieberman (1st 177), Mike Brown (2nd 190); Total (29+20=49)
1983: Pete Schuyler (3rd 134), Darryl Burley (1st 142); Total (18+24=42)
1978: Mark Lieberman (1st 177), Mike Brown (3rd 190); Total (22+18=40)
1967: Mike Caruso (1st 123), Joe Peritore (3rd 130); Total (23+15.5=38.5)
1965: Mike Caruso (1st 123), Joe Peritore (2nd 130); Total (20*+16=36)
1965: Joe Peritore (2nd 130), Bill Stuart (1st 137); Total (16+20=36)
1966: Mike Caruso (1st 123), Joe Peritore (2nd 130); Total (20*+16=36)
1976: Bob Sloand (4th 126), Mike Frick (1st 134); Total (13.5+21=34.5)
1974: Mike Frick (4th 126), Tom Sculley (1st 134); Total (14+20=34)
1965: Rich Warnke (4th 115), Mike Caruso (1st 123);  Total (12.5+20*=32.5)
*Caruso had a R32 bye in 1965 and 1966 which limited his bonus point potential.

Career NCAA Team point production/Record
Lieberman-Brown: (31.5+40+49=120.5), (2-Titles, 2-2nds, 1-3rd, 1-5th)/141-11 .928
Caruso-Peritore: (36+36+38.5=110.5), (3-Titles, 2-2nds, 1-3rd)/113-6-1 .942
Rohn-Trenge: (1^+51=52), (1-Title, 1-2nd)/123-25 .831
^Trenge did not wrestle in the 2001 NCAA tournament despite qualifying.  Rohn was the 11 seed and DNP.

1 hour ago, PortaJohn said:

I'm paying the coach.  History has proven this is the correct bet.  Kids still want to wrestle for the highest profile name.  Also have to factor in the ever changing rules on NIL.  Get the right coach and the rest will fall into place.

The landscape is changing.  Under pay-for-play an AD might be better served by looking at what has worked for their professionals counterparts (MLB, NFL, NBA, NHL, and Soccer GMs) that achieved a high level of success rather than past NCAA dynasties.  Considering how the national title is decided in wrestling a few great individuals can make an outsized difference.  Analysts call the NBA a players' league because 3-4 superstars can win a title and, as such, a single superstar player wields great bargaining power - far more than any coach.  The impact of a single wrestler can have on the team standings at NCAAs points to it being a players' league too.