BAC

I'm pretty sure Bartlett's eligibility might be expired. I don't think Syd wants him re-committing there anyway anyway, at least not until Starocci's off campus. But hey, nice scoop Hammer!

Yonkers, a bit north of NYC. https://www.kdtrainingcenter.com/

Dang, half of that 2021 "top 30" didn't even start last year. That's brutal. Maybe I missed someone but I count just 5 AAs among that group (#s 3-6 and 30).

Pretty remarkable what KD has been able to achieve with Duke and other guys, e.g. Ryder, James, others. Just goes to show that an outstanding coach doesn't need to be a guy with a stack of medals and trophies. Some people are just really good at teaching, supporting and motivating.

This is a variation of something that came up when Real Pro Wrestling was around 20 years ago, and I always thought should have been done. The goal is to make the matches more throw-oriented and incentivize point scoring. The idea is that you incentive losing efforts at throws (see "match scoring"), and make the team scoring based on both who won *and* points scored. So: Team points for match wins ("win points"): --Win: + 1 team points. --Win by Tech Fall (by scoring 20+ points -- total points, not point differential): + 3 team points. --Win by fall: + 6 team points. Team points for match scoring ("activity points"): --If you score 5-9 points in your match (win or non-pin loss): + 2 team points. --If you score 10 to 14 points in your match (win or non-pin loss): + 4 team points. --If you score 15 or more points in your match (win or non-pin loss): +6 points. Match scoring: --If you get tossed in a 5 point throw, you get 3 points. --If you give up a 4 pointer, you get 2 points. --Last point wins. (No tie breaker.) Let me explain with a few examples of hypothetical matches. Imagine this is the first match of a 6-weight dual meet. 1. Spencer Lee (Team A) beats Luke Lilledahl (Team B) 4-0: SL's team gets 2 points, LL's gets 0. That's nice. But it's only 1 team point. 2. SL beats LL 11-2: Team A gets 5 points (1 for winning, 4 for scoring 10-14 pts), Team B gets 0. Much bigger team points for Team A. 3. SL beats LL 20-13: That's a tech (since match ends at 20 points). Team A gets 9 points (3 for tech, 6 for scoring 15 or more points). Team B gets 4 points in the loss, for putting up 13 points. 4. SL pins LL: Team A gets 6, Team B gets 0. (LL's points at the time of the fall not relevant.) 5. SL beats LL 18-14: Team A gets 7 (2 for the win, 4 for scoring 15-19), Team B gets 4 (for scoring 10-14). The idea here is to make a boring (even if one-sided) 3-0 or 4-1 win have very little impact on the team score, and not really helping your team much. Instead, you want to get points for your team, you really need to rack up the points. Conversely, if you're the losing wrestler, you still can score big points for your team just by closing the gap. That's where the risk-taking points for getting tossed comes into play. A lot of guys shy away from upper-body ties since the downside is so big -- e.g. a 4 or 5 points swing. But if it's just a 2 point swing, *and* you get "activity points* even if you lose the exchange, then it's more worth it.

Not just the top 3 current recruits. Each have a legit claim to being the best high school wrestler of all time. Other guys may have been as good, but the accomplishments of these three while still in high school stack up favorably to (as good or better than) every other guy before them. All three have multiple NCAA champions on their hit list, and I don't think there's anyone besides these three to make the finals of making senior US freestyle team while still in high school -- at least not since Jimmy Carr in early 70s. To my eyes, they've been jockeying for "best overall" the past year, with the top spot changing multiple times. Bassett is great too but I'd have him and Lockett a notch below.

Thoughts: --Lee looks as good as ever. Not as quick, but yet he outwrestled Luke in neutral. Expected him to dominate on top, but thought Luke would be closer on his feet. --Woods' style seems to have really opened up. Mich was a good move. Don't see him medaling but you never know. Feel for McKenna. Yianni should've been here. --Holy cow, PJ. Does this settle the "best high schooler of all time" debate? Knocks off 2 defending NCAA champs and now a 4x'er. I guess Jax may have something to say in a month. That said, Yianni looked small. He should be at 65kg. --Carr got it done. Could easily have gone the other way. The cut in Mesenbrink's head was probably his biggest enemy as it caused lots of stoppages. Carr's just so quick though, and if he can keep his conditioning in top form, he can keep winning this matchup. Carr can medal. --Levi looks good and methodical, but I'm not sure I see a medal. Dake should be here. --Really happy for Zahid. He's really putting it together and you can tell how he's improved with Taylor. His conditioning is better too. Dake has no business being here. That's 2 world teamers that we lost because they're too lazy to cut weight. Sorry not sorry. --What a war. Psyched for Trent. Good battle. Trent can medal. --Snyder looks smooth, though I'm not sure Zillmer had much for him. --Wyatt got exposed there a bit. He can medal but needs to tighten up a bit. He's not going to be able to gut guys at worlds like that. Fun though. 2nd match, and 2nd match of PJ/Yianni, were ones for the ages. (Side note: CP needs to learn the difference between a 4-pointer and a 5 pointer.)

Um...

... would she look just like a female version of him, and win multiple NCAA shot put titles? Answer: Yes and yes. https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/other/mya-lesnar-proved-she-s-brock-lesnar-s-kid-with-a-second-ncaa-title/ar-AA1GEVok?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=f8561602a2544561bd3b58c625a51541&ei=13

I got: 57kg: Lee 2-1 61kg: Arujau 2-0 65kg: McKenna 2-0 70kg: Yianni 2-1 74kg: Mesenbrink 2-1 79kg: Haines 2-1 86kg: Dake 2-1 92kg: Hidlay 2-0 97kg: Snyder 2-0 125kg: Wyatt 2-0 Should be some good ones.

To quote Andy from Shawshank Redemption: "Don't be so obtuse." The title of the team they're assembling is literally the "2025 NCAA Quarter Century Team," according to them. Not the 2025 Quarter Century Team. It's about NCAAs. A NCAA title is a prerequisite. They could have made a world/Olympic medal a prerequisite. They didn't. Read their description of the finalists they selected for 125 (here). Spencer has an Olympic silver. They don't even mention it. Abas has an Olympic medal. They don't even mention it. They don't mention international accomplishments at all. (Two of the four finalists have none.) They *only* mention NCAA accomplishments. Which makes sense, since it is -- again -- the "2025 NCAA Quarter Century Team." If your point is Flo didn't impose specific rules or criteria for fan voting, that's true. If you want, you can vote for the guy with the longest win streak, the stubbiest nose, the nicest haircut. But it would still be nonsensical to say, "Just wait til Abas gets his sweet haircut this weekend, that'll make this discussion moot." The fact that they don't rule out a given criteria doesn't mean its determinative, or even relevant. To be fair (and I posted this earlier), I do think freestyle is relevant when someone's earned a medal during, or immediately after, their NCAA career -- especially if they do so using largely folkstyle technique. They gives us broader insight to how good they were at their NCAA peak, and helps us compare wrestlers across generations. Apparently Flo agrees, as in the 133lb discussion, they mention Vito's world title between his Jr and Sr years. Rightly. It suggests the peak he reached after his Jr year was super high, and helps offset the significance of his losses to Crookham the following year. At the same time, a world medal well after graduation is less relevant, since the greater the delay, the harder it is to use as a proxy for how good someone was when they were an NCAA wrestler. So for example, JB's gold just months after graduating (knocking off the 2x defending Russian world champ) is more telling than, say, his gold in 2022, or DT's world gold 4 years after he graduated. A lot happened in between. Back to Abas/Lee: Both got an Olympic silver 2 years after graduating. Not super relevant given passage of time, but does show a world-level skillset at a somewhat proximate time. Had Abas continued to win world medals after that, it wouldn't really tell us any more or less about how good he was as an NCAA wrestler. Same with Lee. It'd move them up on Flo's freestyle-heavy "top 100" list (here), just not this one.

Chael put out a video update. I hesitate to link it at all, since it sounds like he's largely just parroting the unverified stuff that's already out there on social media, but it does seem he's trying to be careful.

That's right, I forgot the process. Looking at the article I linked, experts picked 45, then fans picked the top 5 in each weight category. And, looking at the nominees, there was no doubt a recency effect at play there, too, with very few old-timers on that team.

I'm not sure what I'm saying that's confusing you or that you disagree with. I think I'm being pretty clear.

What, at Worlds? I'm pretty sure the "quarter-century" team is focused on folkstyle, not freestyle. Lee winning Worlds wouldn't move the needle on Abas being the clearly better pick at 125lbs in folk. Heck, if it were focused on freestyle, both Abas and Lee would be behind Gilman and Cejudo, whose accomplishments eclipse both of them. I'll grant you that if Lee wins Worlds this year -- and I'll be screaming my head off for him to do so -- it'll mean he's had a better freestyle career than Abas, who never won a title. Abas was pretty darn good though -- Olympic silver, and in 2003, he upset the 2x Russian Olympic champ Mavlet Batirov (but ended up 5th). Retired too soon, though came back in '08 and lost in OTT finals, 2 matches to 1, vs. Cejudo who, as we know, took gold that year. It's funny, in 2005, when selections done by a panel of experts rather than the whims of brand-new fans, Abas was named to the NCAA's 75th Anniversary team, as one of the 15 best collegiate wrestlers of all time (here). The only other wrestlers deemed worthy to be mentioned alongside Abas in the lightweight division were Brands (Tom), Gable, Smith and Uetake. Fast-forward 20 years, and Abas can't even get picked over a guy who took 6th as a senior, and Pyles' last video has Abas behind even 1x'er Robles. Sigh.

So if only Abas was smart enough to MFF out of NCAAs his freshman year, instead of wrestling back and taking a loss en route, THEN (and only then) he might be as good as Lee, since he could say he has "only one loss"? C'mon. Stop rewarding guys who don't compete. No one said Lee isn't mentally tough in general. Dude's endured a lot. But on that day in March, he wasn't mentally ready/capable of wrestling back, so he is only 6th best that year. That equates to three Ls/presumptive Ls.

Some great picks here. I'm just going to add a few in who left an impression: 125 - Chris Fleeger. Never got it done but so much fun to watch. 133 - Eric Jurgens. I hated how good he was. 141 - Michael Lightner. Soooooo smooth. 149 - Darrion Caldwell. The giant slayer! 157 - Bryan Snyder. Best I ever saw to not win a title, and the real reason JB got so good. 165 - Donny Pritzlaff. Incredible on his feet. 174 - Chris Pendleton. Even Askren could never touch him. He was just leaving the scene as Flo was entering it, and slips under the radar. 184 - Greg Jones. Could watch that guy on his feet all day. Just so slick. 3x'er. 197 - J'Den Cox. He's the real #1 here, but I'm not sure he can win a popularity contest with Nickal, or maybe Flo screws him by slotting in Cael, Snyder or Brooks here (despite them only having 1 year at this weight). His defensive style wasn't much fun, but he knew how to hold position and win. HWT - Tommy Rowlands. Big guy who wrestled like a lightweight.

That's not how I remember it. Ramos rag-dolled Lee earlier in the season, running up the score to 8-1 before Lee got on top and pinned him. That wasn't the only time Lee got put on his back that season either. The NCAA semis loss was an upset, no doubt, but it wasn't a fluke (Ramos would've won without the pin), and I don't think many following closely thought Lee was untouchable. He was erratic that season--as dominant as ever on top, leading to insane stats, but vulnerable. Abas, meanwhile, finished his career with a win streak (95) almost equal to Lee's total number of wins (98). Unbeaten his last 3 years at 125 (omitting his bump-up loss as a soph to then-2x defending 133lb champ Guerrero, 5-3, one TD each). I don't think he had more than 2 or 3 takedowns scored on him in that entire stretch. I recall the gasps of the arena when Fleeger hit him with an incredibly slick inside trip in the 2002 semis. Abas still majored him, but the idea that someone could score on Abas, let alone beat him, seemed inconceivable. I'm a big fan of both. But we shouldn't give any weight to the subjective "wow" factor that Lee gave you unless you also saw Abas compete. (Not picking on you, Bruce; I saw you picked Abas in the other thread.) Objectively, when comparing two 3x'ers' careers, inability to get it done as a senior is more problematic than inability to get it done as a freshman. Abas wins on the numbers. I'm especially unsympathetic to the "but he lost twice at NCAAs" argument about Abas's freshman year. Nothing is more annoying than assigning consy bracket wins to wrestlers who choose to default out instead of wrestling back, especially when they're physically able to compete. In my book, Lee lost 3x at NCAAs as a senior. I'm not saying he was wrong to default out; if he simply wasn't mentally collected enough to compete, then maybe that was the right call. But mental toughness is part of the sport. Those are losses, both technically and actually. Abas's 4th is qualitatively better than Lee's 6th.

7 times, according to this article here. Then he redshirted. But man, from RS soph year on, he was nearly unbeatable. (Even though it always seemed like he could widen the gap if he really felt like it.)

If Clooney's producing it, it's a good bet it won't be directed against Ohio State generally so much as Jim Jordan specifically.

I know, I hate my questions too. It feels insane to not have Snyder first team.

Except Burroughs as a senior was about as good as any NCAA wrestler, at any weight, over the past 25 years, arguably behind only upperclassman Cael. Does that count more than DNP'ing as a freshman? We also know Burroughs owned Dake for years in freestyle, without ever really altering his technique all that much from folkstyle (i.e. all takedowns). I don't think there's any serious question that Burroughs as a senior at 165 would've been strongly favored in folk over Dake as a senior at 165. If that's not enough, so be it, but to me, I just can't overlook how good Jordan got by the end of his career.

I'm pretty sure it's intended to be a pure folkstyle list. If it weren't, it'd be a sin to not have Cejudo or Gilman on the 125 list, as their freestyle accomplishments are better than anyone else here being considered. That said, I feel like it's defensible to look to freestyle as one factor to break a tie between two guys from different eras, who have otherwise comparable folkstyle stats. Especially where they didn't alter their style much from folk to free, and still picked up medals close to their college years.

I mostly agree with this, but there's sort of a psychological barrier here (besides the fangirl stuff): 1. Do you really think of Snyder as a HWT? 2. Would you really pick Snyder over Gable in a folk match at HWT? It's tempting to slot in Snyder at 197, even though he lost in his only finals appearance at that weight. But I assume they'll put him at HWT where he'll be runner up to Gable, and they'll justify it as saying that it doesn't mean Gable was better, only that he was better as a HWT since Snyder's sort of a 'tweener. Not sure I even disagree with that, though it seems crazy for an all-time-great like Snyder to be 2nd team.