Rank the 4xers

[JimmyCinnabon]

With the additions of Carter and Brooks to the 4X club let's see your new ranking of 4X champs.

 

1. Cael Sanderson - Undefeated 159-0. No question here.

2. Kyle Dake - Won as a true freshman and did it in four weight classes. He finished 137-4.

3. Pat Smith - First guy to do it. That means something to me. He finished 121-5-2

4. Carter Starocci - He had to win his fourth title on one leg and went through two previous champs. He was unbeatable after his freshman year. He finished his career 93-4.

5. - Aaron Brooks. He moved up to 197lbs for his fourth and was absolutely dominant with nobody even close. Finished his career 89-3.

6. Yianni Diakomihalis. This was tough between him and Brooks. He had one less loss but the deciding factor for me is that he was not as dominant as Brooks his final year when he should be at the his best. The loss he took to Gomez in his final year was the tiebreaker for me.

7. Logan Steiber. He was obviously great but the finals against Oliver weighed heavily here for me. He finished his career 119-3.

 

After Cael and Dake I really think it's splitting hairs with the rest of the guys if I am being honest. You could move those guys around and I wouldn't have any real objection.

Edited March 25 by JimmyCinnabon

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

1. Sanderson

2. Brooks

3. Starocci (would have been #2 without the knee injury)

4. Dake

5. Smith

6. Yianni

7. Stieber

 

Brooks and Starocci over Dake because Dake had a much lower career bonus percentage

[MidwestMan]

You might want to weigh in the competition that the wrestlers faced to get to the top 4 times.  Some paths might have been easier than others.  If MM would have won this year in a weight class that included 3 world champs/2 former nat champs and finished an undefeated career, he would have been at the top of this list.  Oh well, "shoulda, woulda, coulda!"  

[BarSeries]

16 minutes ago, JimmyCinnabon said:

After Cael and Dake I really think it's splitting hairs with the rest of the guys if I am being honest. You could move those guys around and I wouldn't have any real objection.

I'm objecting if someone puts Stieber at #3.

[MidwestMan]

5 minutes ago, BarSeries said:

I'm objecting if someone puts Stieber at #3.

Catchy handle considering your referring to Steiber.  Only way Steiber I'd mentioned as a 3 is if his dad votes.

[Pinnacle]

This is where a mention that 2 of Starocci's "losses" were actually injury defaults has merit. 

[Elevator]

1 minute ago, Pinnacle said:

This is where a mention that 2 of Starocci's "losses" were actually injury defaults has merit. 

Yes - for 4 years he was the NCAA champ and it was his bracket.  

[Pinnacle]

11 minutes ago, Elevator said:

Yes - for 4 years he was the NCAA champ and it was his bracket.  

When you can wrestle two former champs on one leg and they are both afraid to shoot on you that is telling. 

[pokemonster]

Aaron Brooks was certainly dominant, but he definitely benefited in not having to face Zahid in the NCAA finals his actual freshman year. He'd likely be a 3 timer if that were the case. 

Edited March 25 by pokemonster

[pokemonster]

2 minutes ago, Pinnacle said:

When you can wrestle two former champs on one leg and they are both afraid to shoot on you that is telling. 

I agree with what you're saying, but Shane Griffith was also held together by tape the entire season. We're lucky his limbs didn't fall off. 

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

14 minutes ago, pokemonster said:

Aaron Brooks was certainly dominant, but he definitely benefited in not having to face Zahid in the NCAA finals his actual freshman year. He'd likely be a 3 timer if that were the case. 

Why was he able to avoid Zahid?

[pokemonster]

1 minute ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

Why was he able to avoid Zahid?

Covid year and Zahid likes the booger sugar. 

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

5 minutes ago, pokemonster said:

Covid year and Zahid likes the booger sugar. 

Those seem like 2 factors you can't really blame Brooks for...

[pokemonster]

Just now, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

Those seem like 2 factors you can't really blame Brooks for...

True, but everyone is dropping Logan down the list due to astericks such as his final with JO, who was an all-time great. Also because he lost to Zain, another all-time great when he had the flu.

The best person Brooks ever faced in college was Trent Hidlay, who got 4th place behind Kaleb Romero just last year. Just throwing more asterisks in since they seem to be valid in this argument. 

[Rassling]

The #1 ranked 4 timer I’m my opinion is Kyle Dale because he won 4 times in 4 different weigh classes. I don’t believe that will ever happen again, at least in my life time.

[Antitroll2828]

5 minutes ago, pokemonster said:

True, but everyone is dropping Logan down the list due to astericks such as his final with JO, who was an all-time great. Also because he lost to Zain, another all-time great when he had the flu.

The best person Brooks ever faced in college was Trent Hidlay, who got 4th place behind Kaleb Romero just last year. Just throwing more asterisks in since they seem to be valid in this argument. 

I mean brooks beat Keckheisen like 4 times and he just bonused this way through ncaas…brooks also beat 5x AA and Olympic bronze medalist Myles Amine in another final, Hidley is not even close to the best guy he’s faced 

Edited March 25 by Antitroll2828

[MidwestMan]

Like I said, timing and competition in the weight class is a big part of the equation.  

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

3 minutes ago, Rassling said:

The #1 ranked 4 timer I’m my opinion is Kyle Dale because he won 4 times in 4 different weigh classes. I don’t believe that will ever happen again, at least in my life time.

While Mr. Dale was impressive it's not like he wasn't a full sized wrestler in each of those 4 weight classes.  There's nothing inherently more challenging about winning in 4 different weight classes than winning the same class 4 years in a row like Spencer did (or was supposed to).

[pokemonster]

Just now, Antitroll2828 said:

I mean brooks beat Keckheisen like 4 times and he just bonused this way through ncaas…brooks almost beat 5x AA and Olympic bronze medalist Myles Amine in another final, Hidley is not even close to the best guy he’s faced 

I forgot about Keckeisen, you're right there. Myles Amine never won a title. Who else did Brooks beat on the way that has a title?

Logan Stieber took out: Tony Ramos, Kendrick Maple, Jordan Oliver, Zain Retherford... 

[wrestle87]

11 minutes ago, Rassling said:

The #1 ranked 4 timer I’m my opinion is Kyle Dale because he won 4 times in 4 different weigh classes. I don’t believe that will ever happen again, at least in my life time.

7 minutes ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

While Mr. Dale was impressive it's not like he wasn't a full sized wrestler in each of those 4 weight classes.  There's nothing inherently more challenging about winning in 4 different weight classes than winning the same class 4 years in a row like Spencer did (or was supposed to).

People talk about this a lot and it seems like a very odd thing to give a wrestler credit for putting on weight.  It’s not like he did it all after the age of 25 when he was done growing.

FAR more impressive to me is that Dake did it entirely on his own.  There was nobody in his room on his level, and his mind and mental approach were the entire catalyst and motivating factor for all of it.  He doesn’t have any older brothers who beat the daylights out of him when he was young to get him good, it all just came from inside him and happened in his own mind.  That is a very special thing to be able to do.

[Antitroll2828]

34 minutes ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

Why was he able to avoid Zahid?

Cocaine

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

1 minute ago, wrestle87 said:

People talk about this a lot and it seems like a very odd thing to give a wrestler credit for putting on weight.  It’s not like he did it all after the age of 25 when he was done growing.

FAR more impressive to me is that Dake did it entirely on his own.  There was nobody in his room on his level, and his mind and mental approach were the entire catalyst and motivating factor for all of it.  He doesn’t have any older brothers who beat the daylights out of him when he was young to get him good, it all just came from inside him and happened in his own mind.  That is a very special thing to be able to do.

This seems to be giving no credit to the Cornell room, his RTC or any of his other training partners.  I'm sure it wasn't Dake rolling with a bunch of newbies for 4 years.

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

3 minutes ago, wrestle87 said:

People talk about this a lot and it seems like a very odd thing to give a wrestler credit for putting on weight.  It’s not like he did it all after the age of 25 when he was done growing.

FAR more impressive to me is that Dake did it entirely on his own.  There was nobody in his room on his level, and his mind and mental approach were the entire catalyst and motivating factor for all of it.  He doesn’t have any older brothers who beat the daylights out of him when he was young to get him good, it all just came from inside him and happened in his own mind.  That is a very special thing to be able to do.

Agree, and Dake was HUGE in each of those weight classes.  He never looked small for the weight he was in.  For example, Frank Molinaro was a hulk at 149 and Dake made him look 20 pounds lighter.  Dake must have bird bones.

Edited March 25 by Jimmy Cinnabon

[pokemonster]

Just now, wrestle87 said:

People talk about this a lot and it seems like a very odd thing to give a wrestler credit for putting on weight.  It’s not like he did it all after the age of 25 when he was done growing.

FAR more impressive to me is that Dake did it entirely on his own.  There was nobody in his room on his level, and his mind and mental approach were the entire catalyst and motivating factor for all of it.  He doesn’t have any older brothers who beat the daylights out of him when he was young to get him good, it all just came from inside him and happened in his own mind.  That is a very special thing to be able to do.

Dake does speak a lot about Gabe Dean being his guy in the room, which is wild because he was 184 lbs. So, I think he had adequate competition, just not something he can replicate on the mat since Dean was so much bigger. 

I do agree that Dake needs to be near the top, he's the only one to actually do hit his true freshman through actual senior years (no Covid year, no redshirts). 

[Elevator]

20 minutes ago, Rassling said:

The #1 ranked 4 timer I’m my opinion is Kyle Dale because he won 4 times in 4 different weigh classes. I don’t believe that will ever happen again, at least in my life time.

Meh - do not see the allure.  Some guys grow more during their careers than others - but winning title does not get progressively tougher as the weigh class goes up.  Dake was never particularly small for the weight as I recall - to the contrary he almost always was among the strongest and full sized for the weights.  But my memory may not be perfect on this.