red viking Posted March 20 Author Share Posted March 20 (edited) 14 hours ago, JimmyBT said: Makes claim that fixing deficit can be easily done without raising rates. Then give no legitimate way to make it happen other than raise taxes and maybe cut spending. Shake my f ing head You need to learn to read more carefully. i said that fixing inflation could be done without raising rates. Yes, the inflation has everything to do with the money supply. The money supply increased dramatically during the COVID era due to our massive deficit. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYFSD In fact, most economists will tell you that if we truly balanced the budget 100%, we'd go into a depression and probably have DEFLATION. there's a sweet spot in the middle where we'd definitely slow down inflation significantly but people ignore that. Edited March 20 by red viking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyBT Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 (edited) 1 hour ago, red viking said: You need to learn to read more carefully. i said that fixing inflation could be done without raising rates. Yes, the inflation has everything to do with the money supply. The money supply increased dramatically during the COVID era due to our massive deficit. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYFSD In fact, most economists will tell you that if we truly balanced the budget 100%, we'd go into a depression and probably have DEFLATION. there's a sweet spot in the middle where we'd definitely slow down inflation significantly but people ignore that. Still waiting for how it’s sooooooooo easy. I’ll continue waiting. Again. It’s a stupid thread title. Edited March 20 by JimmyBT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red viking Posted March 20 Author Share Posted March 20 22 minutes ago, JimmyBT said: Still waiting for how it’s sooooooooo easy. I’ll continue waiting. Again. It’s a stupid thread title. It's very basic economics Jimmy. Inflation results when you increase the money supply that is in the hands of consumers significantly more than the production of goods (if that increases at all). Deficit spending results in more money to consumers without having to pay for it. If we cut spending and increased taxes, that would take money out of consumers hands and slow down the economy. https://www.crfb.org/papers/risks-and-threats-deficits-and-debt Quote In response to the COVID-19 pandemic and economic crisis, policymakers injected more than $5 trillion of fiscal support into the economy. Deficits ballooned from just under $1 trillion in 2019 to an average of $3 trillion per year over the subsequent two years. Quote Over the past year, the PCE index has risen by 6.3 percent; economists have attributed 2 to 4 percentage points of this rate to the $1.9 trillion American Rescue Plan alone.2 CPI inflation has totaled 8.6 percent, the highest in four decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offthemat Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 40 minutes ago, red viking said: It's very basic economics Jimmy. Inflation results when you increase the money supply that is in the hands of consumers significantly more than the production of goods (if that increases at all). Deficit spending results in more money to consumers without having to pay for it. If we cut spending and increased taxes, that would take money out of consumers hands and slow down the economy. https://www.crfb.org/papers/risks-and-threats-deficits-and-debt I can only guess that your economist is Robert Reich or someone similar. You’ve shown some figures to show how much money was injected into the economy, now show how much money was sucked out of the economy by the shutdowns. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red viking Posted March 20 Author Share Posted March 20 (edited) No significant amount of money, if any, was "sucked out." COVID and COVID-related policies caused a slowdown in the exchange of money (but not the overall money supply) and that's why the stimulus was injected. It was an over-reaction though. Edited March 20 by red viking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offthemat Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 39 minutes ago, red viking said: No significant amount of money, if any, was "sucked out." COVID and COVID-related policies caused a slowdown in the exchange of money (but not the overall money supply) and that's why the stimulus was injected. It was an over-reaction though. By your logic, raising taxes wouldn’t reduce the money supply, either. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red viking Posted March 20 Author Share Posted March 20 1 hour ago, Offthemat said: By your logic, raising taxes wouldn’t reduce the money supply, either. It would reduce it from what it would otherwise be, because the feds wouldn't be borrowing as much money. Deficit during COVID (that has partially continued) resulted in significant increase in money supply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offthemat Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 13 minutes ago, red viking said: It would reduce it from what it would otherwise be, because the feds wouldn't be borrowing as much money. Deficit during COVID (that has partially continued) resulted in significant increase in money supply. It would have no effect unless and until it did widespread damage to the economy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyBT Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 (edited) 5 hours ago, red viking said: It's very basic economics Jimmy. Inflation results when you increase the money supply that is in the hands of consumers significantly more than the production of goods (if that increases at all). Deficit spending results in more money to consumers without having to pay for it. If we cut spending and increased taxes, that would take money out of consumers hands and slow down the economy. https://www.crfb.org/papers/risks-and-threats-deficits-and-debt Probably cut spending is what you said. You have no logic is basically what you’ve stated. Edited March 20 by JimmyBT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyBT Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 Keep taxing the people that are already paying for the 40% + that don’t pay income tax. Oh and probably cut spending. Makes perfect sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red viking Posted March 21 Author Share Posted March 21 23 hours ago, JimmyBT said: Keep taxing the people that are already paying for the 40% + that don’t pay income tax. Oh and probably cut spending. Makes perfect sense. The rich are richer than ever and their taxes are lower than ever. Yes; let's work on this deficit and part of that should be making the ultra-wealthy pay their fair share. Even Warren Buffett (and many other uber-wealthy) admitted that it's ridiculous and that he has a lower tax rate than a lot of middle class folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyBT Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 On 3/14/2024 at 1:46 PM, red viking said: It's very simple. Just raise taxes. Make the middle class pay more and the rich pay MUCH MORE (their fair share). Deficit spending is a huge source of inflation and how this mess started in the first place under Fat Donny. Writing checks to almost everybody. We didn't see the results until the very end of his term but it was inevitable. Biden just continued it and a huge part of this has always been our legislature. None of the Democrats want to talk about cutting spending and none of the Republicans want to talk about raising taxes. So, they compromise by increasing spending AND cutting taxes at the same time. Biden's plan to provide a tax break for mortgage interest will only INCREASE home prices AND INFLATION. If we significantly decreased the deficit through more taxes and/or less spending, we wouldn't have to increase interest rates at all. Nobody seems to be talking about this. It's amazing how dumb the average person is. Ummmmmmm your words. Make the middle class pay more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyBT Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 (edited) On 3/14/2024 at 2:18 PM, red viking said: That's subjective and may depend upon location, but I'd say it would include the majority of the population. A reasonable estimate would be everybody between the 15 to 20th & 80 to 85th percentiles of income. The majority of us should be paying higher taxes IMO. Ummmmmmmmm the majority of us already pay plenty. IMO. 60% of us already pay ALL the income taxes. Edited March 21 by JimmyBT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mspart Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 13 minutes ago, red viking said: The rich are richer than ever and their taxes are lower than ever. Yes; let's work on this deficit and part of that should be making the ultra-wealthy pay their fair share. Even Warren Buffett (and many other uber-wealthy) admitted that it's ridiculous and that he has a lower tax rate than a lot of middle class folks. Yet he doesn't. What is a fair share? Maybe the discussion can evolve from there. mspart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red viking Posted March 21 Author Share Posted March 21 Yes; the middle class needs to step up some too, but the rich need to step up more. It's pretty simple. The poor people just don't have the money to pay since most of them are barely scraping by anyway. The rich have gotten rich off of them so it's only fair to cut them a break. Also, the poor people get hurt the most when you cut spending so need to hit them on both ends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red viking Posted March 21 Author Share Posted March 21 16 minutes ago, mspart said: Yet he doesn't. What is a fair share? Maybe the discussion can evolve from there. mspart A LOT more. the exact amounts? There are millions of possibilities that I'd be OK with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mspart Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/federal/latest-federal-income-tax-data-2024/ So Top 1% pay 45.8% of income taxes. Top 2-5% pay 19.8% of income taxes. Top 6-10% pay 10.2% of income taxes. Top 11-25% pay 13.4% of income taxes. Top 26-50% pay 8.5% of income taxes. Top 51-100% pay 2.3% of income taxes. If you tax the rich more heavily, what does that do to their earnings? What does it do to the treasury? I think it is fairly apparent that as tax rates go up, less comes in. As tax rates go down, more comes in. I believe that is rather historical. https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/laffercurve.asp This says that tax revenue is lowest at low tax rate and very high tax rate. Revenue is highest somewhere in between where it doesn't affect businesses or people adversely. If you set the lowest tax rate at 10%, the next at 52% and the next at 100%, there will be very little incentive to make more money that will get taxed at 10%. People will not work harder to make more money that is immediately taken away from them. That is logical. mspart mspart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red viking Posted March 24 Author Share Posted March 24 On 3/21/2024 at 4:13 PM, mspart said: https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/federal/latest-federal-income-tax-data-2024/ So Top 1% pay 45.8% of income taxes. Top 2-5% pay 19.8% of income taxes. Top 6-10% pay 10.2% of income taxes. Top 11-25% pay 13.4% of income taxes. Top 26-50% pay 8.5% of income taxes. Top 51-100% pay 2.3% of income taxes. If you tax the rich more heavily, what does that do to their earnings? What does it do to the treasury? I think it is fairly apparent that as tax rates go up, less comes in. As tax rates go down, more comes in. I believe that is rather historical. https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/laffercurve.asp This says that tax revenue is lowest at low tax rate and very high tax rate. Revenue is highest somewhere in between where it doesn't affect businesses or people adversely. If you set the lowest tax rate at 10%, the next at 52% and the next at 100%, there will be very little incentive to make more money that will get taxed at 10%. People will not work harder to make more money that is immediately taken away from them. That is logical. mspart mspart The uber rich don't work much anyway though. They had to work very hard and or be very smart on the way up but once they're really raking it in their mostly just profiting off of others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyBT Posted March 24 Share Posted March 24 Equal Opportunity will always be > equal outcome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyBT Posted March 24 Share Posted March 24 https://dailyhodl.com/2024/03/22/167911000000-added-to-us-national-debt-in-20-days-as-citadel-ceo-ken-griffin-warns-government-spending-at-borderline-insanity/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red viking Posted March 24 Author Share Posted March 24 6 minutes ago, JimmyBT said: https://dailyhodl.com/2024/03/22/167911000000-added-to-us-national-debt-in-20-days-as-citadel-ceo-ken-griffin-warns-government-spending-at-borderline-insanity/ Yup I saw that too. But you and the other wingers will stop complaining if Fat Donny wins in November. Trust me, he won't cut spending OR increase taxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyBT Posted March 24 Share Posted March 24 And you left wingers want to tax more which just means more wasted spending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyBT Posted March 24 Share Posted March 24 13 minutes ago, red viking said: Yup I saw that too. But you and the other wingers will stop complaining if Fat Donny wins in November. Trust me, he won't cut spending OR increase taxes. I don’t want him to increase taxes soooooooooooo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red viking Posted March 24 Author Share Posted March 24 10 minutes ago, JimmyBT said: I don’t want him to increase taxes soooooooooooo Yup. Deficit will go even higher but you'll hypocritically stop complaining about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyBT Posted March 24 Share Posted March 24 (edited) 26 minutes ago, red viking said: Yup. Deficit will go even higher but you'll hypocritically stop complaining about it. With the way the Dems spend it may be too late. Oh and inflation will go down under fat Donny. Mush Brain Biden caused this. Edited March 24 by JimmyBT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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