Jon_Kozak

Lol...yes, this result will be counted. Palmer is going to drop significantly

Thanks for your advice. What part of my post was defamation? Also, why did you join this board two hours ago and only comment on this thread?

A few things to add here that haven't been covered: -His videos (of minors) are embedded on porn sites -Many of his most viewed videos have large portions that don't feature wrestling (wrestlers walking around during injury time/blood time) -He films and uploads videos without having permission/rights to the events Most recently he wasn't credentialed for Midlands and filmed anyway before he got kicked out by Storniolo. We've tried to strike his channel for copyright infringement because that's what we can actually prove. We're still working through it but things have gotten tricky where we've had to bring in legal.

No, I equated that to your logic of ignoring quality of competition in favor of tournament placement. No one would say a Maine State champ should be ranked ahead of a PIAA state 7th place because of placement at a tournament. Unless of course that Maine state champ defeated a bunch of nationally ranked wrestlers. That logic doesn't work at any level - high school through senior level. It's especially problematic at the senior level when there's 1 tournament a year with all of the best wrestlers and there's a random draw. You have to take into account other results outside of that tournament to properly rank a wrestler. Otherwise, a wrestler will rise unjustifiably in the rankings for defeating poor competition. I already acknowledged Marsteller could drop slightly but his results (wins and losses) over the past year are objectively better than Mykhailov's. Again, saying I don't value placement at worlds is just wrong. Since you won't look into what you're saying I did it for you. Below are all the senior world medalists from 2023 with their rankings: 57: Gold: #1 Stevan Micic Silver: #4 Rei Higuchi Bronze: #5 Arsen Harutyunan Bronze: #2 Zelimkhan Abakarov 61 Gold: #1 Vito Arujau Silver: #2 Abasgadzhi Magomedov Bronze: #4 Taiyrbek Zhumashbek Uulu Bronze: #13 Shota Phartenadze 65 Gold: #1 Ismail Musukaev Silver: #15 Sebastian Rivera Bronze: #4 Shamil Mamedov Bronze: #16 Vazgen Tevanyan 70 Gold: #1 Zain Retherford Silver: #2 Amir Yazdani Bronze: #3 Ramazan Ramazanov Bronze: #4 Arman Andreasyan 74 Gold: #1 Zaurbek Sidakov Silver: #2 Kyle Dake Bronze: #14 Khetik Tsabolov Bronze: #6 Daichi Takatani 79 Gold: #1 Akhmed Usmanov Silver: #11 Vladimeri Gamkrelidze Bronze: #2 Mohammad Nokhodi Bronze: #12 Vasyl Mykhailov 86 Gold: #1 David Taylor Silver: #2 Hassan Yazdani Bronze: #3 Myles Amine Bronze: #6 Azamat Dauletbekov 92 Gold: #3 Rizabek Aitmukhan Silver: #4 Osman Nurmagomedov Bronze: #7 Feyzullah Akturk Bronze: #5 Zahid Valencia 97 Gold: #1 Akhmed Tazhudinov Silver: #10 Magomedkhan Magomedov Bronze: #3 Kyle Snyder Bronze: #11 Givi Matcharashvili 125 Gold: #1 Amir Zare Silver: #3 Geno Petriashvili Bronze: #2 Taha Akgul Bronze: #4 Mason Parris Of the above 40 medalists only 8 are ranked outside of the top 10. Those 8 wrestlers all have recent losses to someone ranked above them or outside of the top 20. If you think using wins and losses to establish a ranking is terrible, then I don't know what to tell you. Again, I say this all respectfully and to try to help you understand the ranking process.

It'd be nice if it were a legit formula - then I could just blame it on that. The "methodology" we use is based on head-to-head results and a wrestler's "overall resume". There's increased subjectivity at the beginning of every season because we have to weigh this year's results against prior years. Ranking gets especially chaotic/subjective when early season results contradict results from last year's NCAA tournament or the season in general. Nico Provo is a great example - he just had an incredible tournament beating 4 ranked guys including last year's NCAA Runner-up. But last year Provo went 0-2 at NCAAs and even suffered a loss during the regular season to a non-qualifier. We chose to bring Provo to #1 while Earl kept him #4. Who's right and wrong here? It's very subjective now but will likely clear up as the year progresses and we have more data (at least I hope so!).

Your statements are once again an exaggeration and simply not true. You're digging your heels in on this one example and extrapolating it to the rest of the rankings without providing any other examples. To say, "they rely far too much on fantasy" ignores why Marsteller, Burroughs, Savadkouhi, Nokhodi, etc were/are ranked high in the first place at 79kg. It's not fantasy - it's results...exactly what you said there's not enough of. Also, earning a ranking is relative to the competition you defeat. Your logic is similar to saying that someone who wins a Maine State Championship should be ranked ahead of someone who wins PIAAs. Once again, I'm fine with having a friendly dialogue about rankings but you seem to be putting a lot of your own opinion here without backing it up with data.

So you value finish at the tournament more than quality of competition? Mykhailov was on the objectively easier side of the bracket at worlds...it's not close. Usmanov, Nokhodi, and Marsteller were all on the other side. I had them ranked #1, #2, and #3 respectively coming into worlds - Usmanov won and Nokhodi took bronze. Mykhailov was ranked 10th and Gamkrelide was 19th. So Mykhailov should rise in the rankings for losing to #19? Honestly, Abasov kind of came out of nowhere because he had been wrestling primarily at 86kg. I can understand the perspective thinking Marsteller should drop slightly because of his loss to Abasov. I chose to keep him higher because Marsteller's quality wins over the past year are far better than anyone ranked from 5-20.

Ok then - I honestly cannot believe you think Mykhailov should be ranked ahead of Marsteller because he placed higher at a tournament while having worse head-to-head results against the field.

Respectfully, you're missing the point. Not only did Marsteller beat Burroughs, he also beat Kentchadze and Savadkouhi. Savadkouhi has wins over Burroughs, Sidakov, Nokhodi, and Gamkrelidze. Mykhailov also lost to Evan Wick in the past year. His hardware does not mean near as much as his head-to-head results in which it's undeniable that Chance Marsteller has better wins. If Marsteller was on the same side as Mykhailov, he would have been the favorite to make the finals.

To be clear - my reference to the Crookham ranking was not a dig at Earl. He does a great job and I really respect the work he puts into the rankings every week.

Marsteller doesn't just have "quality wins" - he beat Burroughs twice, Savadkouhi, and Kentchadze. Those might be the best wins of any in the weight. Mykhailov was on a much easier side of the bracket and lost to Gamkrelidze - who Burroughs teched at World Cup. What examples are you referring to? Again, I'm genuinely curious. Look at Flo's and Intermat's rankings...if you compare them, there's really not that much of a difference. For you to say they're "terrible every step of the way" is a pretty extreme thing to say. Same with "criticism...from the wrestling world at large" - pretty extreme. Are you talking about Ryan Crookham being ranked #1? Because that's where intermat has him now.

Sorry...forgot to answer your question. Yeah, I think we'd have put Ramirez above Carr had he beat Olejnik.

David Carr is 2-1 against #1 Keegan O'Toole...completely different situation imo

Thanks for not wanting to go too hard on me but you're welcome to tag me next time. This has been an incredibly unique year of college wrestling and the rankings reflect that. Maida dropping 18 spots is "unprecedented" because everything surrounding 125 this year is unprecedented. Rocky Elam didn't drop because he sat out. He dropped because other guys wrestled and recorded really good wins. Where do you think Chance Marsteller should be ranked after holding wins over Jordan Burroughs, Ali Savadkouhi, and Avtandil Kentchadze in the past year? I follow international wrestling as close as anyone in the world so I'm genuinely curious what other issue you take with the international rankings.

It is almost always the Russian National champ. They only make exceptions for their best - this year only Sidakov and Sadulaev were allowed a special wrestle-off. Olympic champ Zaur Uguev, world champ Abasgadzhi Magomedov, Olympic bronze/world champ Gadzhimurad Rashidov, and Olympic bronze medalist Artur Naifonov all had to go through Russian Nationals.

Russia has submitted all of its world team members to be vetted. We're still waiting to see the final list but I believe Sidakov will be in.

https://www.flowrestling.org/articles/11161843-results-for-usa-wrestling-at-the-2023-ziolkowski-memorial-poland-open The above results were copied from the article I'm updating daily (that's free for everyone to look at). I'm also embedding some of the best matches for Team USA in the article so it's convenient for everyone.

lol...came here to give you props for your Nolf pick. Happy to be wrong if it means an American winning! Nolf is steadily improving his freestyle game. Beat Bizhoev (2021 world bronze) last January and now the win over Emami (2022 world bronze).

Overall great analysis but Nolf winning would be a pretty big surprise. 2X world silver Salkazanov is the clear favorite to win gold. He's on the other side of the bracket and will likely face 2022 world bronze Younes Emami in the second round. Also, Nolf's second match against Gadzhiev will be tough...he was a U20 world champ last year.

You have my attention

https://arena.flowrestling.org/event/f0c5bac2-8eb1-474a-84c3-3c471d9f1078 - Here's a link to the brackets

Again UWW is responsible for the entirety of the World Cup production. All we (Flo) can do is communicate any production issues to the team here at the venue. We've let them know about all the issues - blackouts during cuts, switching to Mat A, weird overlay, etc. And we agree with you, not great.

Friendly reminder that this is a UWW produced event

It was just announced at the press conference that Musukaev was not able to make it here and is out so scratch that match. However, Ghasempour said he might wrestle 97kg against the USA so that would be a #1 vs #1 matchup with him vs Snyder.

At 65kg in the Iran vs All-World team #1 Rahman Amouzad will wrestle #2 Ismail Musukaev. They wrestled at worlds where Amouzad won 6-0 That's the only potential #1 vs #2 matchup.