BAC

Thanks. That's the one I was thinking of.

LOL 1998, 2018, same thing. :]

I'm just talking about titles among the wrestlers in the lineup, of course. But that reminds me of the 1998 dual between tOSU and PSU, which I think would've had 8, except Nolf didn't wrestle.

Has there ever been a NCAA D1 dual meet with as many individual NCAA titles between the two teams as PSU v Iowa this weekend? I count 10: 3 Lee, 2 RBY, 2 Brooks, 2 Starocci, 1 Dean. I think it might be a record.

Some big wins by DeSanto and Lugo. After the HWC being dormant for so long, its good to see them start to get back into the swing of things. DeSanto taking out Nashon, and Lugo over Henderson, suggests they'll be in the hunt for a Final X spot.

I meant to say apart from Starocci. Hopefully that was evident when you got to the part about Starocci arguably being on his own tier.

Well maybe you can point them out for me. I always thought of Lee as the guy who, even if you hate Iowa, you respect the hell out of HIM. The kid goes hard, respectful of opponents (Ayala may disagree, but loved the “nice throw” comment to Ramos), willing to wrestle hurt, defies the shove-him-out-of-bounds-and-demand-a-stall-call Iowa stereotype, smiles, nice to his mom, kept ADS’s head in check, willing to sacrifice future freestyle success to help his collegiate team with bum knees. I admit I’m still a little salty at Iowa about that last one, but I can’t recall anyone taking shots at Lee. Not denying it, just saying he seemed pretty impervious to criticism from my standpoint.

And what are Steen’s top 20-ranked wins that give you such confidence in him? Ok, top 50? No? How about top 100? Oh wait, my mistake, the dreaded Tyler Klinsky had cracked the Wrestlstat’s top 100 at #93 when Steen eked out a 6-4 win over him. Look, I’m not saying Steen has no chance, and you are probably right that a regular decision for Ybarra is more likely. And if Steen were a little bigger he could be more competitive — in time he can get there. But Steen is out of his depth right now. If he were to beat Ybarra it would be the best win of his career.

How so? Not my fault that Ayala’s mom started teeing off on Lee on Twitter, or that Lee and Brands were jawing at each other at the Soldier tournament after Lee roughed up Ayala. If you don’t like it, don’t go name-calling to me, tell Iowa to stop airing its dirty laundry. My “motive” is pretty clear: I’d like to see Lee and RBY wrestle. What kind of sorry excuse for a wrestling fan are you if you disagree with that?

You lost me as well, especially with the injury stuff. You seriously don’t think Lee practices with 133lb’ers? Probably 141lb’ers at times too. You’d think I were suggesting that Lee bump up to get bow and arrowed by Dean at 197. It’s especially crazy considering RBY’s style. If Lee loses, it’ll be because RBY is too fast, cutting him after TDs, and Lee never gets on top. RBY will want nothing to do wrestling with Lee on the mat, size difference or not. And the “risking his reputation” stuff may matter to insecure Iowa fanboys but I think Lee is too prideful to let it impact him, especially when it may help the team. And it isn’t like Lee hasn’t taken losses before — he has several, but always gets it done in March. I don’t see why this is any different. No one will say “he is a 4xer but he lost to RBY” — not when he has worse losses already on his resume. It’s more likely people would say “he is a 4x’er AND he bumped up a weight to put it on the line against a 2/3x’er when the team needed him.” He doesn’t even need to win for that to be another feather in his cap. And if you are Brands, do you really want to instill doubt in your thoroughbred by telling him you don’t think he can compete with RBY? Brands should be careful how he plays his cards here. Yes, as a fan I want to see it, but it’s easy to see why it makes sense from Lee and Iowa’s perspective too. I see lots of PSU fans urging Lee to stay at 125, which I get because they are used to giving up 5 or 6 at that weight anyway, only for RBY to even the score. But I hope Cael and company welcome the challenge and agree to start the dual at 141 if Iowa asks, to give this a chance to happen.

Well he beat Kemmerer. Hopefully you don’t have him buried down in tier 4 too. He and Lewis are easily the two best 174bers in the past 2 years and Labriola has wins over both. And wins over other top 10 guys like Lautt, Smith, Truax, Romero, Bullard, Massa, etc., with 3 AA finishes including a 3rd. So yeah… those wins. (That, and he is undefeated this year and ranked #2 by all ranking services.) The only guy he is arguably not on the same tier as is Starocci, and even that is debatable as Labriola has wins over every guy to have ever beaten Starocci (Kemmerer, Washington) or taken him to OT (Lewis), and Labriola himself took Starocci to OT. That suggests they are in reaching distance of each other, which is what a tier system is about. Trying to find a marginal bad loss or two for Labriola from prior seasons does not magically pull him out of a tier of guys he has *proven* on the mat he can beat. Especially when, as someone pointed out, Starocci lost to Washington, which by your “bad loss” theory should drop Starocci to tier 3.

Responding to some criticisms … — fair point about Ayala’s shirt but throw out Ybarra instead, who is still a heavy favorite over Steen. Ybarra just beat Cory Land up at 133 and Steen is way undersized at 125. I have to think Brands has been keeping Ybarra’s weight within reaching distance in the event of a Lee injury. Ybarra likely bonuses Steen. — Iowa likely needs this. PSU has 4 champs, another #1 guy, and is favored at 157. Iowa likely needs to take 2 of those to win. Maybe Cass/Warner can take one between them, maybe, but they need another. It’s a huge swing if Lee pulls it off. — if they aren’t sure they can have the dual end at 133 so they have the option. Cael could say no but I doubt he would. Neither he nor Tom are big on duals but both are advocates of filling up the arena. — whoever suggested I am questioning Lee’s toughness or team loyalty, you are mistaken. I think Lee would consider doing this precisely because he IS tough and willing to make sacrifices for his team. I’m a big fan. The only hits his reputation have been from inside the Iowa bubble (eg that he is a prima donna who won’t practice with the team and/or is resentful over having to wrestle a teammate), and this is a good way to silence those ungrateful critics. — the only one with anything to lose here is RBY. Lee is poised to be a 4x’er, but even Iowa fans aren’t picking him over RBY. If RBY wins, people will have expected it. It Lee wins he has the Hodge locked up, if he loses, it gets thrown out as an off-weight loss, or at worst leads to him sharing the Hodge with Yianni as 1-loss 4xers. Lee should want this. But I don’t think RBY ducks Lee if he comes for him. — the reasons to make this happen are countless. Duals don’t matter, but this is effectively the dual meet championship. They are both seniors. The two most decorated wrestlers in a single NCAA match ever. Whatever the outcome, there would be an outpouring of respect for both. It should happen.

Happy to discuss. The results you are ignoring are wins. If a guys tier is only as good as his worst loss, that means Brooks and Griffith are tier 3. Smith is no worse a loss than Coleman or the ND State kid — and Smith was LAST year. It makes no sense. Labriola’s wins are way too impressive and recent to put him anywhere other than tier 1, or at worst just below Starocci.

It’s Iowa’s only real chance to win the dual. They can throw in Ayala to get the major at 125. Even if Lee loses by dec, it is a wash, but if he wins Iowa can pull off the upset. This should happen. I realize there are lots of excuses in the Iowa camp why it won’t happen. Lee has only been back from injury for a few weeks; he is too small; it might hurt his confidence for NCAAs; it hurts his legacy. But about that legacy. How does Lee want to be remembered? As the guy from the other weekend, who got salty at his coaches for having to wrestle a teammate, and bow isn’t willing to bump up to help his team win a dual? Or as the “excuses are for wusses” guy who put it on the line for glory and a big dual win? It’s their last year. Their last big dual. They can mail in techs or they can do something memorable — for the ages. It would be a new record for the most NCAA titles on the mat at the same time. I’m sure RBY would welcome it. What about you Spencer?

It seems to me you're using a definition of "tiers" that no one else uses, and you're allowing your subjective opinion of who's likely to beat who override the actual facts of who's beaten who. But the last time I checked the internet wasn't giving out prizes for winning arguments, so lets agree to disagree. I'd have Starocci/Lewis/Labriola tier 1, and the guys ranked #4-12 in tier 2. I could be convinced to give Starocci his own tier, but there's not enough separation between the others to create any other tier levels within the top 12 or so.

Yeah I don't understand that. I'd have Foca with the group you have in tier 4. What has Foca ever done to outshine the guys in your tier 4? Lewis and Starocci are defensive-minded wrestlers. Wrestling them close is no great accomplishment; beating them is. Foca's elite-win list is paper thin, with one career win at NCAAs. Its debatable whether he even deserves to be in O'Malley's tier, a guy who's owned Foca for years. I'd also have Labs in the same tier as Lewis. The guy is a 3x AA including a 3rd place finish, is unbeaten this year, has a win over Lewis barely a month ago, countless other top-10 wins (including Kemerer), and is the undisputed #2 ranked guy behind Starocci. What else does he have to do to show he's enough in the same ballpark as Lewis to be in the same "tier"?

I feel like a shout-out to ND State is overdue too. They have 5 guys in the top 20, and are coming off a 2nd place finish at the Scuffle. This Caliendo kid is just a redshirt freshman. Coach Kish and his team must really be coaching these kids up. Kudos.

Starocci aside, I'm surprised to see so many guys putting Foca in the same tier as Labs and Lewis. Lewis is a NCAA champion and 2x finalist. Labriola is 3x AA, unbeaten this year with a win over Lewis. Foca? He's a 0x AA with only one win in his *career* over a top 10 guy (ranked #8). He's a solid wrestler and may well AA this year, but jeez, lets let him get on the podium at least once before we start putting him in the same "tier" as NCAA champs.

I’m surprised to see so much support for a rule change. What injury has taken place that would justify rules that have worked for decades? Is pain-avoidance really reason enough to abolish a move, even where injury risk is low and it has been part of the sport for countless years without incident? I disagree it is a “punishment move.” If that is all it is, it would be stalling. I also disagree it works only if your opponent succumbs to the pain. Like a power half, an effective bow and arrow is about leverage and technique. The pain is a little extra encouragement, but better wrestlers can resist that. The move works if done properly because, pain aside, they have no choice. True, if done poorly it can seem like your are just torquing on the opponent, but the novel likely won’t work unless the other guy is a fish. A bow and arrow is infrequently seen because few do it well. Eric Guerrero was very effective with it internationally, Zain and Max are more recent effective practitioners, and I think it is very unfair to say they are somehow using brutish tactics. If other wrestlers were as good with it as they are, they’d use it too. All that said, it is always fair to discuss this at the margins — eg what angle merits a stoppage, when you move the ankle after posting it, etc. We can always refine and improve. Rule differences between HS and NCAA, and UWW for that matter, always merit reexamination. But to those advocating abolition because it is “cruel” or a “punishment” and nothing else, I’m sorry, but I couldn’t disagree more.

My theory isn't the only explanation, but I do think its part of it. You said it yourself in the other thread, when commenting snarkily on Smith's explanation that they are fighting sickness/injuries: "Apparently only returning AA’s are susceptible to such ailments." Indeed. Quite a statistical anomaly, isn't it, that its always the most accomplished wrestlers who suddenly get banged up or sick over the holidays? And always the highest-ranked teams who can't be troubled to bring travel to an out-of-state tournament with their starters over the holidays? You never wondered why? There's other factors driving this too, of course. Coaches want their best guys healthy in March and, with the RPI system, wrestlers and coaches know with more certainty what they need to do to qualify for Nationals -- which makes it easier to rationalize bailing out over the holidays. But Smith himself, in his interview on Flo, says he's far more deferential now than he used to be when guys come to him saying they want to take a pass on a dual or tournament. (And he does NOT say his three scratches wanted to come to the Scuffle. He says it was day to day and that it was a joint decision, but implies it was initiated/driven by the wrestler and it isn't his place to question it.) Smith also rebuts your comment that "Athletes having more leverage would mean more competing, not less." He was commenting that his newer wrestlers preferred a shortened season with fewer competitions. And in general, I think you're overstating how much wrestlers spend their holidays cutting weight and traveling to some far-flung place, as opposed to seeing family, getting some rest and maybe nomming on some turkey. But again, its the top wrestlers who have the most bargaining power. Not only can they enter the portal on the drop of a dime, coaches also know that other schools' boosters could be dangling NIL money in front of them. Coaches know this. So if the wrestler has the leverage to skip the holiday tournament without any blowback, there's a good chance he'll use it.

On Flo radio, they were saying the procedures are being changed this year, such that they'll only have a WTT for weights in which there wasn't a medalist. Instead, Final X will consist of the returning medalist, and the winner of the US Open. As a result, WTTs will only be contested for 61kg and HWT in men's freestyle. Do I have this right? Maybe that's common knowledge but if so I missed it. Is the plan that the two US Open finalists (plus the returning medalist) will comprise the "world team members" for the other 8 weights? Kind of a bummer since WTTs is one of my favorite events, and part of me hates to see it watered down to that extent. But I also see the logic, since the US Open has slipped in relevance these past several years, where it seemed like its only real point in attending for many was to nab a top-8 spot to qualify for trials -- and those who were already qualified would skip it.

Another Midlands name that deserves a shout-out is WVU's true freshman Brody Conley at 174. Lost early 3-1 SV to Illinois' #1 seed Edmund Ruth (who won), and came back for third -- easily. He's 15-1 on the year and though he hasn't faced anyone in the top 20 outside of Ruth, he hasn't had many close matches either.

I feel ya. A little less depth means a less excitement. My theory what we're seeing is the natural result of the power-shift between schools and top athletes that's taken place over the last few years. Between NIL and the transfer portal, the best athletes have a lot of bargaining power. And if they want to go home for the holidays, its harder for schools to say no. Why do I say that? Because the guys who aren't traveling to holiday tournaments are the very best guys/teams. Everyone else is still going. Look at last year's top 3 teams. Michigan hasn't competed since 12/3 -- over a month off. PSU hasn't competed over the holidays in a while, and the Scuffle hasn't been the same since. Iowa competed, but could no longer be troubled to travel, insisting on staying home for the glorified intra-squad wrestle-off that they tried to pass off as a tournament. Look at two other top teams this year, ISU and Missou -- both at the Scuffle. A few days, everyone was talking about 3 national champs going at it, including Carr and O'Toole. Then ISU announces its best starters are staying home. And then Missou announces it, too, will keep 3 of its top guys at home. Both coaches refer to guys being "banged up" but who are they kidding. I suspect all these coaches know that if they don't keep their top guys happy, they can easily be lured by some big donor from another school with a sweetheart NIL deal, and they're gone with the click of a button on their phone.

Thanks for the feedback on the Hilger match. Sounds like it could've gone either way. Re the redshirt... beats me. Their starter, Jake Slinger, is a .500 kind of guy. Serviceable, but not apt to score points for them at NCAAs (or qualify), and went 2-and-BBQ at Midlands as the 11 seed. That said, he's listed as a senior ... maybe he has an extra year of eligibility, but if he's planning to graduate, I could se Pitt having Slinger finish out his career and keep Pitzer on redshirt to bulk up a bit more. Pitt has a nice team, but I'm not sure swapping in Pitzer would move the needle much at ACCs/NCAAs from a team placement standpoint. I don't envy Gavin in fending off the NIL-vultures come March, though.

I'm thinking this guy deserves his own thread. True freshman, takes out Cohlton Schultz 4-0, pinned Trent Hilger in the semis, now has Davison in the finals. Can he take out 3 top 10 HWTs? I'm curious how the Hilger match went (it was a late pin). Especially surprising since Pitzer wrestled 215 in high school last year, and Schultz/Hilger are BIG boys. I assume Pitt was planning to redshirt him, but Gavin may need to rethink that. As an aside, check out Pitzer's impressive collection of first period pins last year: PA-Wrestling.com : Mount Pleasant Vikings Wrestling : Dayton Pitzer. 45-0, with only 4 guys making it past the first period (and only 2 past the 2:40 mark).