Top Big Ten Team Performances of All-Time

[fishbane]

There has been much talk about this years PSU team being one of the best in NCAA history and their potential to challenge the all-time NCAA scoring record.  I was curious how their conference performance stacked up.  Below are the top scoring teams in the history of the Big Ten Wrestling championships

1. 1983 Iowa 200 (9 champs, 1-4th)

2. 1985 Iowa 195.5 (8 champs, 1-2nd, 1-3rd)

3. 1992 Iowa 185 (6 champs, 3-2nd, 1-3rd)

3. 1995 Iowa 185 (6 champs, 1-2nd, 1-3rd, 1-4th., 1-5th)

5. 1984 Iowa 175.75 (7 champs, 2-2nd)

6. 2002 Minnesota 174 (5 champs, 2-2nd, 2-3rd, 1-5th)

7. 2022 PSU 170.5 (5 champs, 2-2nd, 2-3rd)

8. 1986 Iowa 169.75 (7 champs, 1-2nd)

1983 Iowa was the only team to over double the score of the second place team.  2nd place MSU could only muster 81.5 points that year.

[SocraTease]

Don't think anyone will ever touch 200 points by Iowa.  If Penn State had a healthy Starocci (and possibly Van Ness), they might have approached 195 points.   

I'm wondering, though, if the Big Ten in the 1980s and even mid-1990's was weaker overall competitively then than it is now across the board.  In the last decade or so, it is utterly and completely the dominant conference.  Not to take anything away from those Iowa teams but of course comparing across eras is problematic and controversial.

[Ohio Elite]

9 champs is insane.

[JuanMogen]

1983's final NCAA team rank:

1. Iowa

2. Oklahoma State

3. Iowa State

4. Oklahoma

5. Lehigh

 

 

Current NCAA projected tournament team rank:

1. Penn State

2. Iowa

3 (tie). NC State

3 (tie). Nebraska

4. Cornell

 

In 1983, the Big 10 stunk. Right now, the #2 team in the country (from both Intermat and Flo) is IN the Big 10, puts 1 guy in the finals, and he got the devil beaten out of him by the power of the Holy Trinity - Cael Sanderson, God, and Aaron Brooks (probably in that order).

I'll give you one more - the Big 10 in 1983 was rightfully named "The Big 10" with their 10 teams. We let in the riff raff and are up to 14 teams. This on average waters down the scores across the board. Wonder how many of them won similar to Trent Hidley, a man who just earned a conference title by wrestling one time.

Ok, another point - in the 1983 NCAA tournament, aside from Iowa, there were only 5 guys who made it into the top 5 at ALL weights combined who were from the Big 10. Again, in 1983, the Big 10 stunk.

In conclusion, those dorks from Iowa in 1983 playing on easy mode don't impress me. Here in the present day, Penn State even brought a 14 year old to wrestle in their 125 pounds weight. Penn State's guys also have to make weight while holding a Bible.

To anybody with any objections or corrections to what I've typed up, I care about as much about double checking this work as Kerkvliet cares about wrestling. Not happening.

[fishbane]

10 hours ago, SocraTease said:

Don't think anyone will ever touch 200 points by Iowa.  If Penn State had a healthy Starocci (and possibly Van Ness), they might have approached 195 points.   

19 team points is the bare minimum a champion can score and the most possible by a 1 or 2 seed is 25.  Carter Starocci in winning his two Big Ten titles scored 20 and 23 team points.  If a healthy Starocci wrestled there is a good chance he wins the weight and since Shane Griffith forfeited the final he gets at least two bonus points from ostensibly his toughest match of the tournament.  There is a good chance he alone could have added 23 team points this year.  That would make PSU's total 193.5.

It's really hard to count on more points from Van Ness.  It's possible, but Kasak had a really good tournament.  He scored 16.5 team points and finished 3rd with 2 falls/4 bonus points.  Only 4 non-champs outscored him this year.  Last year Van Ness finished 4th with 16.5 team points, but received an injury default for 2 bonus.  Those are less likely this year with the rule change, but with the 3 point TD and the NF changes it's possible he scores more.  It's hard to pick him to finish ahead of Lovett or Gomez and even if he doesn't he might not outscore Kasak unless he somehow won it, which wouldn't have been my pick.

The more obvious points PSU left on the table was in the two finals they lost.  Bartlett had defeated Mendez earlier this year and that was a close winnable match and Truax lost in SV.  Losing a finals match is a 4 point swing.  If those two win and Starocci wrestles they probably break 200.  So there is a path to 200.  Not sure how realistic it is.  Just adding points like that kind of ignores that if we wrestled this tournament again it might be unlikely for Davis, Nagao, Kasak, and Messenbrink to repeat their performances.  All exceeded expectations or needed things to break their way to some degree.

11 hours ago, SocraTease said:

I'm wondering, though, if the Big Ten in the 1980s and even mid-1990's was weaker overall competitively then than it is now across the board.  In the last decade or so, it is utterly and completely the dominant conference. 

For 5 of the 8 years in my table (1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, and 1992) the Big Ten had 10 teams, for 2 (1995 and 2002) it had 11 (Penn State joined) and for 1 (2024) it had 14 (Nebraska, Maryland, and Rutgers joined).  The Big Ten was definitely weaker in 1983 when Iowa scored 200 points, but that team was also really really good.  Iowa won NCAAs with 155 team points, 4 champs, and 9 AAs.  The weak link was true freshman Rico Chiapparelli who lost in the R12, but would later go on to AA 3x and win NCAAs.  They were over 50 points better than 2nd place OSU.  That said no other Big Ten team was in the top 10.  If you look at teams that would later join the Big Ten, Nebraska was 6th with 3 AAs and PSU was 7th with 3AAs.  Rutgers had 1 AA and UMD had 0. 

If those teams (Maryland, Nebraska, Penn State and Rutgers) had been in the Big Ten in 1983 I don't know that it changes Iowa's point total much.  Iowa's wrestlers outplaced them at NCAAs except for 142 and 167.  At 142 Nebraska's Al Freeman lost in the final and Iowa's Harlan Kistler finished 3rd.  They wrestled in the semi's with Freeman winning.  Kistler was Big Ten champ.  At 167 Rico Chiapparelli was Iowa's only wrestler to not win Big Tens.  He was unseeded at NCAAs and DNP making the quarterfinals before losing in the R12.  Penn State had Eric Brugel who was also unseeded and also lost in the R12.  Nebraska had Ray Oliver who was seeded 4th and finished 4th, two spots better than the Big Ten Champ.  With the additional teams 1983 Iowa maybe scores closer to 190 points, but it's possible they score more points if it was rescored with todays rules.  Bonus points are twice as valuable today (Falls worth 2 vs 1, MDs worth 1 vs 0.5) and the extra teams could have provided more opportunity for bonus and advancement points.  Plus the 3 point TD and NF changes makes it easier to get bonus.

It's a similar assessment for the 1985 team.  Iowa won NCAAs with 142.25 team points, 2 champs, and 9 AAs.  Only their heavyweight Steve Wilbur DNP, but he was unfortunate to be unseeded and drawn against the 5 seed in the first round.  He lost and the rules at the time did not allow him to wrestle back.  Michigan (5th) was the only Big Ten team in the top 10 at NCAAs.  

Out of the future additions only Penn State was in the top ten (7th) with 3 AAs.  The trio of Maryland, Nebraska, and Rutgers failed to produce even a single AA.  Iowa's wrestlers outplaced all wrestlers from the 4 future schools except at UNL where Wilbur lost in the first round after finishing 3rd at Big Tens.  PSU's Steve Sefter, a returning AA from 1981, was the 10 seed and finished 4th.  Nebraska had the 3rd seed at this weight, Gary Albright, who lost in the NCAA final in 1984.  He did not place in 1985 losing to Sefter in the 2nd round before getting pinned in the consolations.

11 hours ago, SocraTease said:

Not to take anything away from those Iowa teams but of course comparing across eras is problematic and controversial.

To me the record is the record.  It's black and white.  It would be like asking what was the most points scored in an NFL game.  There is an answer and there can be all kinds of caveats about rule changes and evolution of the game, but I don't think anyone cares that much for the answer to that question.  It might not answer what is the best team of all time?, but it answers the question.

That said I would like if it full brackets were available for the 1980s and 90s to rescore them with todays scoring scheme since treatment of advancement, placement, and bonus points has changed significantly over time and it would make it more apples to apples.  If individual bout scoring were available one could rescore for some of the difference in TD points and NF as well, but I'd question the relevance of that in many instances as it would change the bout from what was wrestled.

[FanOfPurdueWrestling]

6 hours ago, JuanMogen said:

Penn State's guys also have to make weight while holding a Bib

I can’t get over how religious that team is…

[JimmyCinnabon]

41 minutes ago, fishbane said:

19 team points is the bare minimum a champion can score and the most possible by a 1 or 2 seed is 25.  Carter Starocci in winning his two Big Ten titles scored 20 and 23 team points.  If a healthy Starocci wrestled there is a good chance he wins the weight and since Shane Griffith forfeited the final he gets at least two bonus points from ostensibly his toughest match of the tournament.  There is a good chance he alone could have added 23 team points this year.  That would make PSU's total 193.5.

It's really hard to count on more points from Van Ness.  It's possible, but Kasak had a really good tournament.  He scored 16.5 team points and finished 3rd with 2 falls/4 bonus points.  Only 4 non-champs outscored him this year.  Last year Van Ness finished 4th with 16.5 team points, but received an injury default for 2 bonus.  Those are less likely this year with the rule change, but with the 3 point TD and the NF changes it's possible he scores more.  It's hard to pick him to finish ahead of Lovett or Gomez and even if he doesn't he might not outscore Kasak unless he somehow won it, which wouldn't have been my pick.

The more obvious points PSU left on the table was in the two finals they lost.  Bartlett had defeated Mendez earlier this year and that was a close winnable match and Truax lost in SV.  Losing a finals match is a 4 point swing.  If those two win and Starocci wrestles they probably break 200.  So there is a path to 200.  Not sure how realistic it is.  Just adding points like that kind of ignores that if we wrestled this tournament again it might be unlikely for Davis, Nagao, Kasak, and Messenbrink to repeat their performances.  All exceeded expectations or needed things to break their way to some degree.

For 5 of the 8 years in my table (1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, and 1992) the Big Ten had 10 teams, for 2 (1995 and 2002) it had 11 (Penn State joined) and for 1 (2024) it had 14 (Nebraska, Maryland, and Rutgers joined).  The Big Ten was definitely weaker in 1983 when Iowa scored 200 points, but that team was also really really good.  Iowa won NCAAs with 155 team points, 4 champs, and 9 AAs.  The weak link was true freshman Rico Chiapparelli who lost in the R12, but would later go on to AA 3x and win NCAAs.  They were over 50 points better than 2nd place OSU.  That said no other Big Ten team was in the top 10.  If you look at teams that would later join the Big Ten, Nebraska was 6th with 3 AAs and PSU was 7th with 3AAs.  Rutgers had 1 AA and UMD had 0. 

If those teams (Maryland, Nebraska, Penn State and Rutgers) had been in the Big Ten in 1983 I don't know that it changes Iowa's point total much.  Iowa's wrestlers outplaced them at NCAAs except for 142 and 167.  At 142 Nebraska's Al Freeman lost in the final and Iowa's Harlan Kistler finished 3rd.  They wrestled in the semi's with Freeman winning.  Kistler was Big Ten champ.  At 167 Rico Chiapparelli was Iowa's only wrestler to not win Big Tens.  He was unseeded at NCAAs and DNP making the quarterfinals before losing in the R12.  Penn State had Eric Brugel who was also unseeded and also lost in the R12.  Nebraska had Ray Oliver who was seeded 4th and finished 4th, two spots better than the Big Ten Champ.  With the additional teams 1983 Iowa maybe scores closer to 190 points, but it's possible they score more points if it was rescored with todays rules.  Bonus points are twice as valuable today (Falls worth 2 vs 1, MDs worth 1 vs 0.5) and the extra teams could have provided more opportunity for bonus and advancement points.  Plus the 3 point TD and NF changes makes it easier to get bonus.

It's a similar assessment for the 1985 team.  Iowa won NCAAs with 142.25 team points, 2 champs, and 9 AAs.  Only their heavyweight Steve Wilbur DNP, but he was unfortunate to be unseeded and drawn against the 5 seed in the first round.  He lost and the rules at the time did not allow him to wrestle back.  Michigan (5th) was the only Big Ten team in the top 10 at NCAAs.  

Out of the future additions only Penn State was in the top ten (7th) with 3 AAs.  The trio of Maryland, Nebraska, and Rutgers failed to produce even a single AA.  Iowa's wrestlers outplaced all wrestlers from the 4 future schools except at UNL where Wilbur lost in the first round after finishing 3rd at Big Tens.  PSU's Steve Sefter, a returning AA from 1981, was the 10 seed and finished 4th.  Nebraska had the 3rd seed at this weight, Gary Albright, who lost in the NCAA final in 1984.  He did not place in 1985 losing to Sefter in the 2nd round before getting pinned in the consolations.

To me the record is the record.  It's black and white.  It would be like asking what was the most points scored in an NFL game.  There is an answer and there can be all kinds of caveats about rule changes and evolution of the game, but I don't think anyone cares that much for the answer to that question.  It might not answer what is the best team of all time?, but it answers the question.

That said I would like if it full brackets were available for the 1980s and 90s to rescore them with todays scoring scheme since treatment of advancement, placement, and bonus points has changed significantly over time and it would make it more apples to apples.  If individual bout scoring were available one could rescore for some of the difference in TD points and NF as well, but I'd question the relevance of that in many instances as it would change the bout from what was wrestled.

I think your post underscores just how difficult it is to score 200 points. Literally everything would have to have gone right this year for PSU and it did not. Bartlett and Truax could have won titles and it woudn't have been enough without Starocci. Starocci could have been 100% healthy and without Bartlett and Truax winning titles it wouldn't have happened. You need a perfect storm to score 200 points these days.