Dark Energy

And who is being dismissive? ‘Slightly more realistic’. … ok. I’ve already addressed the point above. We view things differently, and that is ok.

I get that there are open questions on logistics. But I do believe that if there was a desire to change, it would be figured out. This really isn’t rocket science. Solutions vary from one to two centralized locations to weigh in, at the mat itself, or something in between. I have faith that if we wanted to change, we’d figure this out. Many on here must think it is impossible to land a rocket vertically. I have faith in human ingenuity.

And the tactic of attacking / minimizing the person so as to cast aspersions on the question and/or opinion is well known … and a pity. Common now.

The debate has been had here before. On logistics …. Calibrate scales before competition. Each scale is official at each mat. Time comes to weigh shortly before match. Get weighed. Done. Do not get to walk around and scale ‘shop.’ Easy rule. Will there be more forfeits early on? Yes. Will they drop significantly as the rule change is digested? Yes. Will there more at equilibrium than there are today? I don’t know. What about a scale being off by a little bit? I bet a process could be worked out. That said, we deal with ref judgment calls on points. Score table stopping clock either precisely at whistle or near it. OOB calls. Stalling calls. Precise or imprecise start and stop times for injury time, recovery time and blood time. None are scientifically 100% accurate. A scale being off by 0.1 lbs is a risk but like most else there are ways to avoid getting hit by that risk.

@pmilk - thanks for the long post and details. Sounds like some great discipline and some adults that really cared. Even then, you mentioned (implied?) that you still did some not allowed activity (plastics / sauna). Expecting also with some degree of oversight. I would agree that reducing weight smartly isn’t the black eye. It’s the dumb approaches, the dumb people, the horror stories that kids tell, what the parents see, what the friends see and hear. I’ve been around the sport for a while. There are many (many many) true a$$hole parents (and some coaches) that live vicariously through the kids and put ridiculous pressure on them. They demand ridiculous actions and treat them like crap if they don’t comply. Weight cutting is an example category for this. I would suggest that if there was a way to get rid of or otherwise ‘fix’ this cancer in the community, weight cutting wouldn’t be such a black eye. I figure it is very hard to do this though. Thus my preference to go to mat side weight ins. i believe weight management would STILL be important. All that you mentioned would still be helpful. But the extremes will be removed as people VERY quickly realize that big cuts are counter productive to success on mat.

So you feel, upon reflection, those are the only two possibilities. Interesting.

While I disagree with @Winners Circle on the character building value of significant weight cutting, I would point out that if scales were mat side, there would still be a need for disciplined weight management and some would likely still seek to lose weight. Health, nutrition, and discipline would all remain key areas of focus.

He made it abundantly clear that he did not get along with ‘staff.’ He made comments that this was basically from the start of his tenure of Ok State. Made a comment that he pushed on the issue, tried to resolve it, but it got to point where had to focus on just being professional at work. Could not get better than that. He had meeting with David Taylor on Zoom after NCAAs, so he could read Taylor’s face and, in the end, knew it was over. Guy gave A TON of detail. Yes, he did not name the person (people?) and didn’t air out the specifics of the disputes / disagreements. But he gave more than 99%.

Ok. Glad we are clear. If it’s insignificant than there would not be any challenge. No hard work. No discipline. The weight loss must be significant enough to drive the character building you believe can be had. Hoping that is a completely fair way of saying what you intend.

So you feel reducing the amount of weight cutting would harm the sport. You feel having weight cutting be a key and important part of the sport, is a plus. You feel — Without significant weight cutting being part of the experience, kids would generally be worse off from a character and long term capability perspective. And their mental and physical health will be worse off. Fascinating. I disagree 100% on all counts.

I’ve been around the sport for decades. I agree with him. Sometimes a new, fresh perspective can provide for excellent / simple questions that can challenge the ‘this is how it’s done’ mantra. And I love that he can step back and keep track of higher priorities. Some here have warped priorities.

Again, it is a needless distraction. Too much of the ‘sport’ is who is the better weight cutter. We all know it is the worst part of the sport. Makes other kids think the sport is crazy / stupid. Makes the wrestlers miserable. Stresses out parents. My wife was so pissed at my son’s cuts. I was too. Nothing crazy. But eat your dinner!!!

This weight cutting crap is a black eye on the sport. Unhealthy. Saps enjoyment.

Sounds like he feels the decision to go to OK State and Coach was rushed and not thought through well. And on multiple occasions mentioned not getting along ‘with staff.’

Your question is so fundamentally basic and simple. The answers you get will either 1) point to logistics difficulties, 2) worry about too many forfeits, or 3) in a subtle way defend weight cutting. My perspective - there is no good answer. The scales should be matside. Weight in can occur when on double deck. Fosters wrestling at a more natural weight.

Wow, talk about an exchange which is ripe for fan speculation.

He also had a major backer in the AD who was retiring. Was able to slot in Mike Grey as he left. All in all I think Koll departed on his terms and made it all work.

Koll is a CEO type coach. He has learned to rally alumni and potential donors - and he is effective at it. Did an incredible job while at Cornell and I think he did well at this at Stanford. Perhaps there is more money than is being assumed.

Amen … freaking goes back to 1800’s. I know people whose great great great grandparents suffered and led a lesser life, resulting in lesser lives for their offspring through multiple generations. Impaired their wealth and happiness. They are due!!!!

Question - will the schools split up into their own divisions? Those that accept and those that don’t? Seems to make sense. Seems like the ones that don’t accept, given the examples above, are more academic oriented and aren’t big money sports schools.

@boconnell you make fair points. A reason for making the thread was that I was seeing a lot of heat towards Penn State and I wondered whether others thought there were teams that would NOT recruit/ actively welcome transfer wrestlers over wrestlers who had already committed to the program from day 1, invested time / energy, created a life in the program, and showed strong character and were a great teammate. I think most will say no. There are not programs like that if a good transfer comes along. Some are pointing out programs that haven’t had many transfers, but I’m thinking it is because they weren’t attractive to the transfers, perhaps because the program didn’t have resources to provide. If the program had the resources they would be happy to use them to get / attract transfers. These programs wouldn’t say ‘no thanks, we have our guy and we are loyal to him.’ If I’m right, Penn State doesn’t deserve to be singled out as the whole system is like this.

Wait, how would you define loyalty? I am loyal to my wife. I will not slide in a new one to replace her. I am loyal to my country, I will not pledge to another. How do you define loyalty? I recognize others may not define it the same. Back to other comments - seems like most are saying if the program has resources, generally no. Super interesting about talking to your team about bringing in a transfer. Really taking their input as a truly important part of the decision is something that I’d say fits in the loyalty bucket.

Do you believe there are teams / coaches that would not ‘accept’ a transfer that has a good chance of beating a current wrestler on the team who has shown commitment / desire / heart — no matter how good the current wrestler is? By ‘accept’ I mean be supportive of the wrestler transferring in and help to make it happen. Again, current wrestler is bought in and working hard. Not a slouch.

All fair points.

Curious about active wrestlers where other active wrestlers (perhaps a bit younger - thinking camp experience) believe they would make a great coach. Could be senior freestyle or greco guys too. Not looking for distant speculation. Looking for word from the troops that have experienced the teaching / coaching. Some guys may be good wrestlers but don’t have the mix of skills to be a good coach. Curious about those that have live reports that they’d make great coaches.