boconnell

Lighten up Francis. I was poking fun at the absurd comment blaming Basset for the professionalization of college sports. But your childish tantrum is making me think twice since I apparently agree with you.

I agree. Basset made college a professional sport and should be criticized for doing that.

Do you know what the blood round is? There isn't a guy ranked below 8 in this list.

This is a weird take. I've heard lots of things said about Lesnar. I've never heard that he didn't work hard. If Gable is following the Lesnar route then he is working plenty hard.

Are you saying a guy on a message board just made stuff up and then doubled down when asked?

I agree the best women in the country right now are really good. I agree the training at the top is as elite as it gets and that they function inside of the same elite system as the men. But I think you are massively underestimating the impact of numbers in a sport. The idea that if Helen Maroulis didn't wrestle we would have just created a different Helen Maroulis from the same opportunities is a strange take. Participation massively matters. The best wrestlers are outliers far more than they are products of the system. Far fewer competitors means far fewer outliers. And outside the USA the numbers are far smaller. If we insist on having GOAT conversations, the fact that JB was best of a far larger field matters. The fact that there are 10 men's weight classes across 150 lbs and 10 women's weight classes across 60 lbs matters. JB has to be the best from 65 KG to 86 KG. Helen has to be the best from 53 KG to 62 KG. If the women spread the weights out to 100 KG and kept 10 weight classes then her job would get much harder. instead of being best from 53-62 she'd have to be best across a far bigger weight range. More of the best women would be funneled into the same weight class. I coached a 190 lb state champion HS girl this year and the UWW says she doesn't exist. Instead they make 10 tiny weight classes for smaller women. Smaller weight ranges and far fewer participants make a big difference. Fewer countries committing resources to the sport make a big difference. If we are going to insist on a GOAT discussion across genders for some reason, these things matter. Just like nobody is bringing up Rex Peery in the NCAA GOAT debate for winning 3 titles in 3 tries for Oklahoma A&M in the 1930s when there were far fewer schools and competitors. Helen Maroulis is incredible but I don't put her accomplishments near the 10 most accomplished US wrestlers. I wouldn't put a men's gymnast with a big medal total near the top of US Gymnasts for the same reason. They get trained in the same infrastructure as the women, but there are far fewer participants.

There are no asterisks. He wrestled under the system of his day and won. Every time. Every one of those tournaments had a single elimination phase and he never lost in that phase. It's like saying Jordan's 6 NBA titles have an asterisk because he didn't sweep in the finals.

You aren't being honest with yourself if you think the world competition in women's FS is close to the men (and again I'm not talking at all about level of wrestling). John Smith had an easier path to medals and golds than Jordan Burroughs did. This isn't saying that there weren't a bunch of incredible wrestlers in the 1980s. Nobody is saying women's FS isn't good. Nobody is saying that little girls aren't training just as hard as little boys. But a sport with 1 generation isn't close to as competitive as a sport with many generations. This isn't a hot take. It's clear and obvious. The worldwide participation numbers aren't close. If people insist on having a GOAT conversation about JB and Maroulis, then this stuff can't be ignored. Just like it can't be ignored when you talk about John Smith and JB.

Are you talking about a mythical GOAT of men's and women's freestyle wrestling? If she gets to 8 golds I still don't put her close to Burroughs. It's apples and oranges. There is zero need for the comparison. But if one is made it isn't close. One of the biggest arguments for JB over John Smith is that in JB's era you had multiple Russians and fewer weight classes, meaning more competition. That is a legitimate argument. There is no argument for the idea that the competition in women's FS is anywhere close to the men's side. I'm not talking about levels, I'm talking about depth of competition. The sport is young and will need decades to catch up. Winning titles in a still developing sport that only has a few tough nations is simply not the same. It should be enough to just celebrate her accomplishments in the field of women's wrestling and his in the field of men's wrestling.

You're probably not wrong that he's in the mix. Especially with him already in final X next year. But while 65 was very tough, I'm not sure Woods beat anybody close to Forest's win over Suda. Woods wrestled one guy listed in FLO's pre tournament top 10, and it was a quick TF loss. I don't say this to dismiss his performance, but more to dispute you using weight class strength as an argument. 65 is tougher but Forest wrestled harder opponents.

Thank you for that. Zahid looked stronger and more physical. That's wild.

How did they look at u17 and u20. That group isn't affected much (at all?) by expats. Other countries aren't buying teenagers. Everything is cyclical. Even the greatest FS wrestling nation in the world has a bad year sometimes.

He is absolutely trying to reach that level. And he is reaching it as quick as anybody in our history. Your comment suggests that he needs to be willing to do what you think he should. You are equating your opinion on training situation with willingness to commit or sacrifice. That's weird and arrogant.

Have they ever sent 7 first timers? Has any serious wrestling ever done that? I don't know enough to say definitively, but I really don't think so. Nobody is as willing as we are to let a world teamer lose their spot. Russia clearly has the depth to have first timers do well, but I don't think they'd ever send that many. And this year their veterans didn't do as well as our first timers.

I would. I honestly think it's him or Blaze and it's near 50/50. I give Forest a slight edge over Blaze because I think his frame is bigger and will fill the weight better in 2 years. I think those two are a cut above everyone else.