Tom formerly Tofurky

I see your point, but I look at it in a "big picture" approach. Maintaining one style that doesn't abruptly end any later than college and offers no professional opportunity doesn't grow the sport. I think everyone here wants the sport to grow, right? Switching to Olympic Freestyle CAN bring in more Matsunoke Onos, Abdurahkmananov brothers, Alan Gelogaevs, Sanshiro Abes, Yojiro Uetakes, etc. and wrestlers from around the globe to compete in college wrestling, which raises the level of domestic wrestling, which means more eyes on the sport, which means more money, which means more support, which COULD mean more teams (Canadian university teams joining the NCAA)... American collegiate isn't having that conversation. The conversation being had is on full display here, in this thread. To paraphrase: "The United States perfected wrestling style. It's so good that we are the only ones who compete in it. The rest of the world needs to adopt our style... which has no and never will have a World/Olympic/professional support or option beyond college." I am not suggesting this is the panacea, but MORE cool storylines in the sport about wrestling at the U.S. collegiate level being a real world melting pot also speaks to administrators at colleges who are looking to attract foreign students, their guaranteed money, and their enrollment, which is GREAT for the sport, especially as the real world enrollment cliff in this country continues forward. Basic principles of business regarding supply and demand may take place from there, and I think that they will, given the opportunity. Yes, all of my statements are hypotheses. However, instead of selling out wrestling to MMA and BJJ or remaining insular to the point of potential stagnation, why not focus on growing WRESTLING?

I'm not so sure about that last one. Refs don't usually quit because there's too much work. It's usually $#!++% parents and coaches who push them out. We are seeing that more and more young folks are participating in Free and GR. That's great for the future of the sport and both styles, as those current students and recent grads will be leading teams in the near future.

I'll bite one last time. I do not know why. If you want to call around to coaches across the IHSA and have them poll their kids, knock yourself out. That said, here are my last two points to you in this thread: 1. Most of Freestyle season isn't wrestled in the summertime. It takes place in spring. The Freestyle and Greco state tournaments and "Second Chance" tournaments take place in May each year, while school is going on. 2. Outside of the Illinois high school season (November to February), I have noticed a dramatic decline in American Collegiate/folk offerings in Illinois each spring and summer in the last decade to 15 years. More and more tournaments are geared towards Free and GR, especially developmentals.

Kids, high school and college, yes.

And because of your (continued) self-identified dramatic(s) and abject conjecture, I bid you "adieu" in this conversation.

No, I am not, and have not suggested that. Move American collegiate as we currently know it to summertime fun and MMA gyms. Again, it would take gradual rule implementation, not one fell swoop. It can absolutely be done.

How would would moving to Freestyle "screw" anyone and how did you come to that conclusion? You have made it abundantly clear that you, personally, do not like Freestyle. That's not an issue. Yet, to argue that your opinion is THE opinion of the general public is specious at best. Is Freestyle less popular here because people just don't like it or because of a lack of exposure to even most people involved in the sport? I'll argue the latter.

I disagree. It comes down to rule adoption and implementation, not trading wrestling for Sambo, for example.

That argument is subjective. While the USA doesn't owe it to the world to help grow wrestling, it sure is pretty cool that guys like Matt Gentry, RBY, Steven Micic and many others have been able to become professional Olympic-level wrestlers and earn an income doing so, while making non-traditional powerhouse nations even stronger. It could be even better than what it is now...

I don't know Tom todurky. All I know is that I never said that, and to read into it is a completely misunderstanding every thing I have said here.

Since you made the claim, and we have people here playing that game, what are the percentages of kids who specialize in sports come high school these days? I do not know the answer to it. To your second paragraph... okay.

Without asking kids why they don't wrestle the Olympic styles my best educated guess (and as a father of teenagers who participate in various athletics) would be this: they have many interests outside of wrestling. The multi-sport athlete is not dead. That may be news to many people here, but I can't help anyone either that. I've stated my position on the change at least twice in this thread. Who is saying wrestling will die out? I'm not clear on that claim, as I haven't voiced that idea. I've addressed the fan perspective, too. It's easy to find here.

My argument was never about popularity of the sport. My argument has been about creating more long-term, professional opportunities for men after college, the style that ends in college. Also, American collegiate was largely perpetuated by guys who didn't wrestle beyond high school and rarely wrestled outside of the season. Many of those people were the same guys who argued against what they didn't know: the Olympic styles and the advent of wrestling "schools". https://www.flowrestling.org/articles/12743697-2024-set-new-records-for-being-the-biggest-fargo-ever - it appears that more and more high school aged kids are finding interest in the Olympic styles.

I'll give a simple sample size: According to the Illinois High School Association's 2021-22 Participation Survey (the last one I can readily find), 13,077 boys and 1,134 girls, ages freshman through senior, participated in school-based wrestling programs. https://www.ihsa.org/documents/forms/IHSA Participation Survey.pdf According to this article (best data I can find: https://illinoismatmen.com/illinois-girls-freestyle-state-championship-results-and-the-numbers/, just two years after the IHSA data, only 217 high school aged girls (16U and Juniors) wrestled at the Illinois Girls Freestyle State Championship or roughly 19% of girls who wrestled school-based collegiate style. According to this link from 2023 (best data I can find): https://illinoismatmen.com/team-illinois-freestyle-squad-is-almost-complete/, 1,263 boys (Juniors and 16U) competed at Illinois Freestyle State. By the numbers from the IHSA I posted about, that's not quite 10% of the boys who wrestled in the IHSA season. If you want numbers from other states and other age groups, that'll be up to you to mine. Since you brought it up, how many schools (elementary or secondary ed) across the country teach BJJ, kick boxing and karate as part of their curricula or extra curricula activities?

I don't buy this argument. Wrestling was part of elementary and secondary physical education curricula for decades. How that came to be, I do not know, but all that was offered/discussed was one style (the American collegiate style), which is what most people learned about. Athlete and fan preference wasn't a preference at all, but something which was force fed to them via the American educational system.

This part I don't understand. AGON, as I understood it, was a protmotion of a hybrid style that was unique to said promotion. Why would an entire RTC, let alone two of them, stop full-time training for World/Olympic gold to train something that is unique to one event? It might work for individuals, but not entirely teams.

I agree that most folks aren't interested in wrestling in general. As to the debate between American collegiate versus Freestyle, I don't think it's that. I think it's tribal. Fans follow schools more than the sports themselves. People would follow sand wrestling just the same if Penn State wrestled Arizona State at some indoor event. That's not to say you wouldn't lose some fans, but by and large each team's fanbase will remain intact regardless of style... I believe.

I don't know, man. I think selling wrestling as a feeder to MMA devalues the sport and makes it seem one dimensional. Hell, St. Pierre, McGregor, Masvidal and many others with no wrestling backgrounds are/were able to regularly fend off attacks from guys who wrestled their whole lives and were accomplished in the sport. You don't need to be/have been a wrestler to have good leg attacks and defense in the UFC. I, again, don't agree that collegiate wrestling prepares guys for Freestyle success, other than on the feet. While that is where most of the action is, that thin air level of athlete also needs par terre offense and defense. Collegiate wrestling doesn't help that. Anyway,good discussion and thanks for keeping it civil. I hope you and yours enjoy your weekend.

Most of the world already wrestles Freestyle and sees it as their primary form of the sport. The United States, however, has a lone style that no one else wrestles and they trumpet it with some desire for authority. Part of that was rules, but I also saw part of that as a money grab. The IOC knows where it's proverbial bread is buttered, and that is the U.S. market. Saying it was dropping wrestling made some changes at FILA/UWW, but also had people spending money to keep the sport, which signals to the IOC that it remained economically viable, specifically in the United States. I do agree with your last point, and that makes me sad.

That's an absolutely ridiculous statement. Here were the Men's Freestyle medal match scores from the last Olympics: 55 - Gold: 4-2, Bronze: 13-5, Bronze: 5-1 65 - Gold: 10-3, Bronze: 10-9, Bronze: 13-12 74 - Gold: 5-0 F, Bronze: 10-4, Bronze: 6-2 86 - Gold: 7-1, Bronze: 5-0, Bronze: 5-4 97 - Gold: 2-0 F, Bronze: 10-0, Bronze: 4-1 120 - Gold: 10-9, Bronze: 7-0, Bronze: 9-3 As everyone can see, what you said is anachronistic and incorrect. Not one of those 18 matches was decided in the fashion in which you claimed.

If that's your opinion, then why not lobby to change the rule set to accommodate MMA? I'd argue that most wrestlers don't want to go into MMA, so making wrestling the "minor leagues" of the sport might have the opposite effect of growing it. Most people don't want to be punched or kicked nor do they want to punch or kick others. Another end of that is for every Daniel Cormier or Jon Jones out there, 10-plus (if not more) former wrestlers have to work other jobs to supplement their training and competing. MMA doesn't automatically equal stable, lucrative work. Again, if guys and women want to pursue those things after college, more power to them. I still feel that wrestling has no obligation to help them grow. Here is my thought on professional leagues: U.S. dollars. If our system had the ability to produce even more high level guys and gals who can make being a wrestler a full-time jojob think depth of Russian wrestling: more RTC athlete at even more RTCs), you'd see more leagues across the world happening. i, for one, can see a mix of Flowrestling: Night In America and what Real Pro Wrestling was trying to do. Bring over the Onos, Yazdanis, Sadulaevs or even clubs from around the globe. USA Wrestling has the connections to help facilitate that. All that being said, none of that can happen without the direct connection to college wrestling, which is why I think we make college wrestling the minor leagues of professional Freestyle wrestling. Right now, fans love their college teams because there is nothing after college. My idea relies heavily on the fanbases of the Iowas, PSUs, Okie States, Cornells, tOSUs, etc. (I really wanted to include Arizona State in that, but...)

Late-1980s/Early 1990s; here's a match from then: https://youtu.be/Z7g6MmBe8qI?si=MV90ZgHWNjLY3ax2 Agreed with the tape delay, as I remember it being two weeks or so after the finals actually took place. https://uww.org/brightcove_video/35733 - German League I can't speak to anything about volleyball, but what I do know is that the world is NOT clamoring to move to the American collegiate style. Men and women (even those from the United States) can travel the world and earn prize money for competing in Free and GR competitions. That just is not the case for American collegiate wrestling. American Folk/Collegiate is a dead end.

I remember watching the NCAA finals each year when they were on CBS. They probably had that contract back then, as they and other broadcast companies had with different sports. Part of the issue with the sport not bei n covered by "the big 3" is the lack of a "professional" option within the sport in the United States. U.S. broadcasters aren't going to cover the German league without a tie to the U.S. Collegiate wrestling doesn't offer that option, but Free and GR absolutely can. This is about finances, and if the U.S. invested in that, the broadcast companies would follow.

Why do you think this is the case?

I understood what you said then and now. I simply do not agree with you, and I don't think wrestling owes MMA anything, nor should it cater to the needs of non-wrestling entities. American Folk/Collegiate is not the way to save or grow wrestling.