BAC

My point was that there was isn’t some double standard where everyone is crapping in Lee while everyone else gets a pass. To the contrary Lee is one of the most well liked wrestlers of this generation. It’s like Mary Lou Retton giving an interview and being like “omg everyone hates me it’s so unfair.” Give me a freaking break. I don’t know Agave but… hater? He is the same guy who was starting a bunch of excuse threads for Lee during NCAAs, saying naw man he is clearly hurt, he’s gotta MFF: https://intermatforums.com/topic/1525-lee-is-injured/#comment-38790 His tune only changed when it started to look like he wasn’t newly injured after all. That’s fair game — following the facts — not being a hater. My challenge was to find anti-Lee threads/posts *besides* the MFF issue. But whatever. I’m not saying there are none as I’m sure there are people out there who don’t like the kid, because no one has 100% likability. That doesn’t change the fact that he is one of the most popular wrestlers of his generation, and the idea that the whole world outside of Iowa is against him is absurd.

LOL yeah but those are MFF threads. That’s my point. Anyone who bails on wrestlebacks at NCAAs, especially in a podium race, is gonna catch some heat unless they are clearly hurt. Thats not anti-Spencer, it’s despite it being Spencer. Have any non-MFF examples?

Not based on reality? Based on what? I’m being serious. Show me all the threads and posts where people are tagging on him just because they don’t like him. Give me an example. I trust the ESPN reporting is not such an example, as you can’t possibly think that they made up a negative story about him. Heck a big chunk of their broadcast was built around him and his run for 4. He took some heat for MFF’ing out, but big-name guys will always get ragged on for doing that. That’s not a Spencer thing, that’s an if-you-ain’t-injured-you-should-suck-it-up-and-go-for-third thing. If it was more heated than usual, it’s only because it was misreported that he left the arena entirely, which is objectively critique-worthy. (I wasn’t among them but I get it.) Iowa wrestlers regularly have their contingent of haters since so many dislike Iowa, but Spencer always defied that mold. He was very in-Iowa-like: having fun, likable, didn’t just push, didn’t whine about stalling, laughed and didn’t seem bitter. Has there EVER been a more universally liked Iowa wrestler? I don’t think so. Prove me wrong if you can, but I think the “everyone hates Spencer” narrative is totally made up. He is no Metcalf or Mocco. He is as beloved as they get.

Yes of course he can, but he didn't stop there. The issue is in the 5-10 minutes of the interview Spencer spent berating those who point to or inquire about his injury, as though it is some sort of massive personal attack on him and double-standard. That's the part that struck me as weird. The truth is that those hypothesizing injury after the Ramos loss or less-than-dominant wins weren't critics, they were a mix of Iowa apologists making excuses and regular wrestling fans who were just trying to explain what they'd seen. So why so defensive? The critics would be the ones who say "Aw Spencer's not hurt, he just lost because he sucks" (which would be a pretty rare comment), not the ones saying hey, Spencer only got a major, maybe he's still recovering or getting his lungs back or whatever. I dunno. Part of me thinks its just that Spencer's a guy who feeds on negativity to make himself better. I'm not sure how healthy that is, but he's said in other interviews that he's highly self-critical and beats himself up, which is part of what pushes him to excel. Maybe the same is true of comments from others -- i.e. even innocuous comments are recast as criticism to feed his World vs Spencer mindset that motivates him. Far be it for me to question what works for him, but I worry about the long-term effect of that motivational strategy. I sensed a touch of jealousy when he spoke of Jesuroga's HEW-induced ditching of wrestling to go join the Navy at the end of the interview.

I dunno, I kind of had mixed feelings about what I heard. On the plus side, he went out of his way to throw kudos to Ramos. Its in line with how he reacted when he lost to DeSanto in high school, and one of the reasons I've long been a fan. He gives credit where it is due and respects his opponents, and seems sincere about it. He also goes out of his way to praise his teammates, coaches and school -- all likable qualities. But it was a bit tougher to hear his defensiveness and grievances. Most I felt were misplaced and some a bit hypocritical. He went out of his way to criticize those who attribute his loss to Ramos to injury, but at the same time, he goes out of his way to say he was in fact injured -- not more so for that match, but injured generally. You can't have it both ways. If you're going to announce you were injured in a given match, you invite speculation as to whether you would have won absent the injury. You can give credit to Ramos while still wondering if the injury played a role. He also acts as though everyone's against him for saying "there's something wrong with Spencer" anytime he doesn't get a pin or tech. But these aren't really criticisms. This is just what happens when everyone knows you're wrestling injured: people speculate whether injury played a role if you falter. And ironically, the ones speculating injury or offering it as an excuse usually aren't his critics, but his fans at Iowa, seeking to delegitimize his losses. He never really explains the MFFs at NCAAs, but clearly the criticisms stung. I feel for him. That said, I just don't agree that he is the subject of some sort of double-standard. To the contrary he is one of the most well-liked wrestlers of recent years. Its just that the higher the pedestal people put you on, the more puzzled people are when you lose or aren't as dominant. Glad to hear he's planning to go to the U.S. Open and I hope he can be healthy enough to be competitive.

In 1936, before they had invaded anyone. (There were discussions of boycotts over persecution of Jews, which didn't pan out.) Games were cancelled in '40 and '44. Germany (and Japan) were banned from the '48 games due to their prior aggression.

So… if instead Ukraine has invaded Russia for the sole purpose of increasing Ukrainian territory, you would be fine with banning Ukraine to avoid a Russian boycott? Do whatever is necessary to appease Russia to ensure they attend. Sounds principled to me.

This post has it correct. I can get behind a rule that says if you attach another country to take their internationally recognized territory, you can’t compete in the Olympics. Period. Or would you have invited Hitler to an Olympics while he was marching across Europe? Yes there are lots of wars and skirmishes, and it is hard to say which ones are right and justified and which are not. So usually Olympic neutrality makes sense. But disinviting countries that are warring for the sole sake of land stealing seems like a pretty objectively neutral principle we can all get behind. It also puts the pressure where it should be: on Russian and Belorussian athletes against their government, demanding adherence to the international order, not on Ukrainians, by forcing those few Ukrainians who are dead or in active military service to share an “Olympic moment” with their attackers. I do agree it makes sense to create an exception for dissidents. And it should be coupled with an offer of asylum by participating Olympic countries — since we all know publicly disagreeing with the war is a crime in Russia. Can you imagine that visual? Say a half dozen dissidents, all under an Olympic/Russian flag, war opponents all, competing for the pride of the Russian motherland, but most certainly not for its government? That is the stuff that inspires revolutions. It is shameful to see the Tucker Carlson lemmings coming out of the woodwork, parroting his pro-Putin propaganda. Are you going to tell us Zelensky is a Nazi sympathizer and Putin was just trying to stop him from genocide? LOL. This is not that difficult. Russia out, Russian dissidents in.

I’ll play! I’m going to go with: (1) he was democratically elected, and (2) none. What do I win?

No Yianni or Zain, but as I said I agree McKenna/Henderson are legit. I'm referring to the National Team, which is top 3. That's what gets you funding. Its why they have true third. The guys I mentioned have all placed top 3. (Agree that Fix is the only one to rep the US in a world championship.) Some results are dated, and they are not always predictive, but there are not many ways to draw distinctions between wrestlers in different weight classes. If someone struggled internationally, you wonder if their domestic success is due to a weak weight. And if they have success internationally, it further legitimizes their wins, and puts their losses in context (e.g. Fix). There's always exceptions but overall, age group gold medalists are a who's who of future champions, and helps puts present accomplishments in context. I don't think so either but that isn't what I said and isn't what I think. I'm mostly influenced by the fact that the HWT weight class is unusually strong right now, relatively speaking. For YEARS, HWT was one of the worst P4P in the NCAAs, mostly inhabited by large plodding guys who would never sniff an international medal. Lockart, Ellis, Fox, Mocco, Rey, Nelson, Konrad, Zabriskie... ruling the NCAA HWT class for 15+ years, zero medals among them, shoving each other to 1-1 OT RO wins while athletic leg-attacking heavies dominate internationally. All NCAA champs, sure, but how high on a P4P list? That started to change with Gwiz, and then fast forward to the last couple years, and our crop of athletic technical heavies is arguably the best ever. You have age group golds in Cadets (Kerk, Schultz), Juniors (Parris), U23 (Cassioppi) and Seniors (Gable) -- all highly athletic guys with refined technique who, IMO, would have run the table if they competed in 2000 to @2014-15 against most of the above guys, and many could/would challenge for a senior international medal *today*. Forget about his cadet medals -- Kerk has multiple wins over Parris, Cassioppi, and made the semis of the OTTs. Has slipped behind Parris but was beating Parris in 2021 when the latter beat Zilmer/Gwiz. There's a body of work that shows Kerk would be a medal threat at worlds today. Its also why I'm high on Hendrickson, another skilled athletic heavy who's shown he can compete with these guys. Its P4P. With no head-to-head results across weight classes, final NCAA placement doesn't matter as much as who they beat, their history and the overall proven package. Fix was 2nd in the world but stuck behind RBY (and now Vito). And we have a monster crop of heavies as I said. I'm more sold on Alirez than I was before as those 2020 results show he can go with the top dogs -- but as scourge said above, its more about my having a high opinion of other guys than it is a low opinion of Alirez.

I have to think he goes 86kg. That's what he did in the last Olympic run, before settling in at 79kg last year and making the world team (beating Dieringer and others). Expecting to see a bunch of PSU wrestlers, Taylor Brooks and Starocci. Agree Carr/O'Toole would go 174, no easy task with JB/Dake there.

That's a solid point, I didn't recall his 2020 run. The field was Covid-depleted but McKenna/Henderson are legit wins. That said, I'm not sure it moves the needle much. I'd bump him up to 8 over Hendrickson but hard to elevate further. Never made a Senior World team (unlike Arujau, Fix, Starocci, Carr) and no age-group world medals (unlike all the guys ahead of him, who all have 1+ golds except Starocci). And in folkstyle, he never made the podium until this year (unlike all the guys ahead of him). I can see the argument for him over Kerk, but I also forgot Mekhi, so... hard to say. Don't want to sound like I'm down on the guy though. He beat a few guys this year that he lost to last year, and looks sharp. I guess he had some injuries and is back in form. And if he can replicate his 2020 freestyle results (thanks for finding that) he'll be a threat this freestyle season.

Forgot he had another year. He's in the mix for the last 2-3 spots. Forgot Griffith had another year. He's also in the mix for the last 2-3 spots, but he did take several losses this year and took 5th, so I dunno. Did think of Lovett/Schultz but wouldn't put either top 10. Feel free to add as HMs. Not sold on Alirez on a P4P level. He won out unbeaten, but as a 1st time AA in a cleared-out weight class. No notable senior-level wins or world-level freestyle honors. The guys I put above him have better overall resumes against better competition, IMO. Maybe he should be a spot or two higher, but there's also an argument to slot Lewis and maybe Sasso/Griffith ahead of him. Sorry to trigger you Jimmy!

Maybe. I hope he goes 61kg this year. Not an Olympic weight but he can use his performance to judge what to do next.

I haven't been following very closely who's got another year and who doesn't but here is my take. Lots of freestyle analogies to draw distinctions, but some of it is just eye test. What's yours? 1. Arujau. This guy level-jumped big time. Never thought I'd see someone major Fix, a World silver medalist, and definitely never thought I'd someone handle RBY like that. Move over Gilman/Lee, I see him as our 57kg Olympic rep. 2. Brooks. Just effortlessly dismantles guys with Cael-like fluidity. Going for 4. Wins over Olympic Bronze Amine shows his bona fides. Only think I think he lacks is S-tier strength. Will be fun to see him challenge Taylor for 86kg supremacy. 3. Starocci. Gives up nothing. Going for 4. Multiple wins over Jr World Gold Lewis. Stuck between 74kg and 86kg but I hope he sticks around after Olympics before MMA because 79kg would be his. 4. O'Toole. Win over Carr was super impressive. So was his tech over Kharchla. 2xer and has a Jr World Gold. High wrestling IQ and can't wait to see how far he goes. 5. Carr. Knocked off O'Toole 2x before NCAA finals, 2 career losses, past NCAA champ and Jr World Gold. Future world teamer. 6. Fix. Can't seem to get on the top of the podium but has a Sr-Level World silver, 3x NCAA runner up, and chatter is he'll use his last year. Would have him higher but after McGee loss, am thinking he's doing the Okie St regression. 7. Kerkvliet. Has been stuck behind some studs. Level-jumped to pass Cass, but Parris level-jumped even more. Past Cadet gold, and good shot at international success if he stays healthy. 8. Hendrickson. Very little separating him from Kerk. Would have won in the semis if he picked top. Molested Cass, a former U23 World Champ. 9. Alirez. Undefeated NCAA champ with huge bonus percentage. Beat a tough Woods to get there. Maybe too high, maybe too low here... hard to say. 10. Woods. Only loss to Alirez and was right there with him. A couple one-point losses last year to Lee/Rivera. A tough out. Hard to leave out Keckeisen, Ramos, Haines, Hidlay, Foca and others, and I'm sure someone will tell me so-and-so is or isn't coming back for a final year, but that's off the top of my head. Speaking of which, is Mekhi Lewis coming back? If so, I'd probably slot him in somewhere toward the end, despite Foca loss.

I'd be sympathetic to this point if someone were left off the PA team who might have beat Kasak but didn't have the chance since Kasak opted out. But in fact, both the AA and AAA finalists were underclassmen, who aren't eligible. Its a no-brainer to put Kasak in there.

A longer version is on the Chael/Lee thread, but here is the shorter version of what I do/don't think. Don't think Lee was injured, at least not anymore than he already was from his overall rehab journey. Do think he'd have wrestled back if he could. Don't think he could because he was too psychologically distraught from the loss. Do think Iowa issued a wishy-washy press release to keep the wolves at bay, implying injury without ever actually stating it. Don't think he owes fans an explanation. Do think he will speak to it eventually. Don't think Spencer deserves blame for not doing something (wrestling back) he was just not mentally capable of at that time. Do think Iowa bears some responsibility for that outcome by convincing Spencer he's the best ever and totally invincible, given that the whole reason Spencer got so good is that he's insanely self-critical and never satisfied with his performances. Don't have any solid basis for any of this rank speculation on my part. Do think I'm mostly right, even though Spencer's PR people on the NIL front will push him to play the injury card.

Will probably be 16 by next year. Arrington will have a couple AA finishes at least.

Exactly. If they're chest to chest, sure, but there was about a full foot separating their chests he just elevates him with underhooks. How?

Philly by a mile.

Those first two throws deserve more props than they're getting here. Both were nasty. The second one, I don't think I've seen one quite like it before. I have no idea how he was able to elevate him like that.

Personally, I think Spencer was just plain too distraught to get it together in time. Quint's comment in the ESPN broadcast in response to Iowa's press release was revealing. He said that he happened to be in the back area later that evening for another reason, and saw Spencer -- and described him, without going into uncomfortable detail, as the most distraught he had ever seen a wrestler after a match at NCAAs. Ever. Its really the only explanation. If it were an injury, he'd still be there cheering on his teammates right away, not just mid-day. Spencer has too much leadership to not be there rooting for his teammates if he can. Too much class to not congratulate the victor. Too much sense of duty to not wrestle back for third if he can. Too much of a tough guy to not wrestle back if he can. He just couldn't pull himself together. The Iowa press release was damage control, not the calculated decision that Chael assumes. They had to say something to keep the wolves at bay, but didn't want to say the truth, so they fed this line about recovery being a "long road" -- enough for readers to infer injury, but vague enough to avoid being later called a lie. But I'm not inclined to blame Spencer for not wrestling back, because I really think it was beyond his control. As I said above, I'm confident that if he weren't in such a hyper distressed state, that he'd have been able to do all those things that he ordinarily would. He always has. He just couldn't. The interesting question is -- why was he so distraught that he couldn't recover like everyone else who suffered heartbreaking defeats? Personally, I think it is because he started believing the hype, instead of being the intensely self-critical guy whose self-disapproval made him constantly improve and become who he is. The GOAT podcast stuff, Brands saying he's the best wrestler of all time, the separate training, the sponsorships, the separate Iowa web page, all of it unmoored him from what makes him great, made him believe for a moment he really was invincible, and he couldn't regain his footing when he lost like that. Again, this is all just my opinion. I could be wrong. Maybe some doctor will say he shredded his ACL in the 1st match and wouldn't clear him for Saturday. But for now, I think Spencer started believing too many things about himself that weren't compatible with losing -- so when he did lose, he was shattered. Really hope he is OK and can find peace. Love watching him and hope to see on the mat for the US Open.

He called Mohammed a false prophet. That may be his truth but it’s also a diss. Would you be fine with a Jewish or Muslim wrestler who used his speech to say “don’t worship Jesus, he is no god or savior”? They are just speaking their truth too, so it’s all good?

Like Brooks a lot, respect his religious beliefs, grimaced when he dissed Islam. Disappointing and unnecessary.

I can't decide who that's a bad matchup for. Besides the fans, I mean.