Tom formerly Tofurky

I see your point, but I look at it in a "big picture" approach. Maintaining one style that doesn't abruptly end any later than college and offers no professional opportunity doesn't grow the sport. I think everyone here wants the sport to grow, right? Switching to Olympic Freestyle CAN bring in more Matsunoke Onos, Abdurahkmananov brothers, Alan Gelogaevs, Sanshiro Abes, Yojiro Uetakes, etc. and wrestlers from around the globe to compete in college wrestling, which raises the level of domestic wrestling, which means more eyes on the sport, which means more money, which means more support, which COULD mean more teams (Canadian university teams joining the NCAA)... American collegiate isn't having that conversation. The conversation being had is on full display here, in this thread. To paraphrase: "The United States perfected wrestling style. It's so good that we are the only ones who compete in it. The rest of the world needs to adopt our style... which has no and never will have a World/Olympic/professional support or option beyond college." I am not suggesting this is the panacea, but MORE cool storylines in the sport about wrestling at the U.S. collegiate level being a real world melting pot also speaks to administrators at colleges who are looking to attract foreign students, their guaranteed money, and their enrollment, which is GREAT for the sport, especially as the real world enrollment cliff in this country continues forward. Basic principles of business regarding supply and demand may take place from there, and I think that they will, given the opportunity. Yes, all of my statements are hypotheses. However, instead of selling out wrestling to MMA and BJJ or remaining insular to the point of potential stagnation, why not focus on growing WRESTLING?

I'm not so sure about that last one. Refs don't usually quit because there's too much work. It's usually $#!++% parents and coaches who push them out. We are seeing that more and more young folks are participating in Free and GR. That's great for the future of the sport and both styles, as those current students and recent grads will be leading teams in the near future.

I'll bite one last time. I do not know why. If you want to call around to coaches across the IHSA and have them poll their kids, knock yourself out. That said, here are my last two points to you in this thread: 1. Most of Freestyle season isn't wrestled in the summertime. It takes place in spring. The Freestyle and Greco state tournaments and "Second Chance" tournaments take place in May each year, while school is going on. 2. Outside of the Illinois high school season (November to February), I have noticed a dramatic decline in American Collegiate/folk offerings in Illinois each spring and summer in the last decade to 15 years. More and more tournaments are geared towards Free and GR, especially developmentals.

Kids, high school and college, yes.

And because of your (continued) self-identified dramatic(s) and abject conjecture, I bid you "adieu" in this conversation.

No, I am not, and have not suggested that. Move American collegiate as we currently know it to summertime fun and MMA gyms. Again, it would take gradual rule implementation, not one fell swoop. It can absolutely be done.

How would would moving to Freestyle "screw" anyone and how did you come to that conclusion? You have made it abundantly clear that you, personally, do not like Freestyle. That's not an issue. Yet, to argue that your opinion is THE opinion of the general public is specious at best. Is Freestyle less popular here because people just don't like it or because of a lack of exposure to even most people involved in the sport? I'll argue the latter.

I disagree. It comes down to rule adoption and implementation, not trading wrestling for Sambo, for example.

That argument is subjective. While the USA doesn't owe it to the world to help grow wrestling, it sure is pretty cool that guys like Matt Gentry, RBY, Steven Micic and many others have been able to become professional Olympic-level wrestlers and earn an income doing so, while making non-traditional powerhouse nations even stronger. It could be even better than what it is now...

I don't know Tom todurky. All I know is that I never said that, and to read into it is a completely misunderstanding every thing I have said here.

Since you made the claim, and we have people here playing that game, what are the percentages of kids who specialize in sports come high school these days? I do not know the answer to it. To your second paragraph... okay.

Without asking kids why they don't wrestle the Olympic styles my best educated guess (and as a father of teenagers who participate in various athletics) would be this: they have many interests outside of wrestling. The multi-sport athlete is not dead. That may be news to many people here, but I can't help anyone either that. I've stated my position on the change at least twice in this thread. Who is saying wrestling will die out? I'm not clear on that claim, as I haven't voiced that idea. I've addressed the fan perspective, too. It's easy to find here.

My argument was never about popularity of the sport. My argument has been about creating more long-term, professional opportunities for men after college, the style that ends in college. Also, American collegiate was largely perpetuated by guys who didn't wrestle beyond high school and rarely wrestled outside of the season. Many of those people were the same guys who argued against what they didn't know: the Olympic styles and the advent of wrestling "schools". https://www.flowrestling.org/articles/12743697-2024-set-new-records-for-being-the-biggest-fargo-ever - it appears that more and more high school aged kids are finding interest in the Olympic styles.

I'll give a simple sample size: According to the Illinois High School Association's 2021-22 Participation Survey (the last one I can readily find), 13,077 boys and 1,134 girls, ages freshman through senior, participated in school-based wrestling programs. https://www.ihsa.org/documents/forms/IHSA Participation Survey.pdf According to this article (best data I can find: https://illinoismatmen.com/illinois-girls-freestyle-state-championship-results-and-the-numbers/, just two years after the IHSA data, only 217 high school aged girls (16U and Juniors) wrestled at the Illinois Girls Freestyle State Championship or roughly 19% of girls who wrestled school-based collegiate style. According to this link from 2023 (best data I can find): https://illinoismatmen.com/team-illinois-freestyle-squad-is-almost-complete/, 1,263 boys (Juniors and 16U) competed at Illinois Freestyle State. By the numbers from the IHSA I posted about, that's not quite 10% of the boys who wrestled in the IHSA season. If you want numbers from other states and other age groups, that'll be up to you to mine. Since you brought it up, how many schools (elementary or secondary ed) across the country teach BJJ, kick boxing and karate as part of their curricula or extra curricula activities?

I don't buy this argument. Wrestling was part of elementary and secondary physical education curricula for decades. How that came to be, I do not know, but all that was offered/discussed was one style (the American collegiate style), which is what most people learned about. Athlete and fan preference wasn't a preference at all, but something which was force fed to them via the American educational system.