Hopa12

Is wrestling a martial art? Some martial artists from various non-wrestling backgrounds especially a significant number pre-UFC traditional martial artists didn't see wrestling as a martial art due to physical conditioning being the focus of wrestling. I am just curious. Do you especially your past selves see wrestling as a martial art? Is it a martial art?

There's really no competition or question about it. If you're asking me which sports are the most technical and the most meaningful out there, martial arts are. Martial arts especially in self-defense are the most intellectual and the most scientific out of all sports not just practicewise but also culturally. Nothing comes close. Gymnastics, American Football, Basketball, Cricket, Dancing, Parkour, Ice Hockey, Pool, Tennis, and Figure Skating don't even come close. Every single martial art such as Muay Thai, Sambo, Kyokushin, Judo, Shotokan, Ringen(Medieval German grappling, wrestling, and submissions), Kajukenbo, Krav Maga, Taekwondo, Fencing, Dutch Kickboxing, Buno(a type of Filipino wrestling that uses weapons), etc. is far more technical than any non-fighting sport in existence. There's something about martial arts that sets it apart from non-fighting sports and that is that it is a journey of personal development and also learning new things such as techniques constantly. Also, another thing that sets martial arts apart from many non-fighting sports is that martial arts, especially effective ones originated in real-life such as survival, self-defense, real conflicts, and real wars compared to other sports that mostly began as games. This is a big reason why martial arts are complex and complicated compared to other sports. Real life is complicated compared to games. There's so much diversity and adventure in martial arts. I would say that martial arts have a far bigger world and a much more diverse universe compared to other sports such as rugby, basketball, tennis, track and field, discus throw, waterpolo, swimming, archery, motorsports, equestrian, soccer, etc. Seriously, you can do so many things with martial arts whether they are self-defense, mixing various styles, developing new techniques, utilizing diverse environments as weapons, using everyday objects as weapons, psychological warfare, deception, reading people, etc. You won't ever get this diversity and diverse adventure in non-fighting sports. Also, martial arts are also far more meaningful and also have something to offer in terms of mythology, heroism, major history, and overall adventure. Many martial artists also get to explore the various cultures of the nations and ethnic groups of various martial arts styles as they learn more about the styles. Also, martial arts along with military strategies and tactics are the defining skills of warriors such as knights, samurai, etc. throughout history. Warriors along with philosophers and scientists were the ones who created and destroyed civilizations throughout history. Warriors and intellectuals are the real reason civilizations rose and fell. Warriors and intellectuals created history. How do the sports of ice hockey, lacrosse, badminton, golf, weightlifting, canoeing, skiing, volleyball, etc. compare to that? Also, martial arts compared to non-fighting sports have so many things going for it when it comes to making movies out of it. For example, there are literally many action movies about martial artists using their skills to fight gangsters or other types of villains for some meaningful cause. But what about non-fighting sports such as American Football, High Jump, Pole Vaulting, Javelin Throw, Baseball, Cheerleading, etc.? What can you even do with them? Like how would the protagonist use those skills against gangsters or other bad guys? I mean you can make movies about them where the protagonist undergoes a personal self-development journey about those non-fighting sports but you can't really do much like have badass heroes use those skills against bad guys the same way he uses his martial arts skills. Yes, the life of an NFL player and also his highschool gridiron football days are indeed full of glamour, popularity, career opportunities, girls, money, etc. but ultimately, everything he does is confined to that football field and also the crowds of fans he has. He would be nothing without his fans while martial artists will continuously be martial artists even without fans. Fans are ultimately what keeps his games and his sports going. For a person like me who is heavily into martial arts(I am a teen male who is a member of an intense BJJ dojo. I am also Kyokushin fighter.), Chess, and STEM(Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics), I wouldn't say that American football(not soccer) and all other non-fighting sports are boring and useless. No. Of course, that's ridiculous. They are certainly hugely beneficial in that they heavily develop social skills, large social circles, physical fitness, support structures, and careers but I wouldn't go as far as to make them my entire personality because that is just boring to me and personally for me, I will feel empty especially in the end. No offense. It's just me. I don't mean any disrespect to non-fighting sports but imagining myself as spending my whole life and defining my entire personality based on a huge soccer field especially as I enter elderly age and death seems like I lived in a golden cage without seeing the outside world. Ultimately, what I did was just games. I didn't really help people in truly meaningful ways like cure diseases, develop technology, use my martial arts skills in fighting a hardened violent career criminal to defend myself in an alley if he tries to rob me, solve crimes, etc. I also feel like my privacy is destroyed and also feel like my entire being and existence is chained to and heavily depends on the mainstream massive public crowd if I define my life based on non-fighting sports, especially team sports like basketball, baseball, and American football. Ultimately, I know that I would be nothing without the crowd who worships me. They're the reason why gridiron football players and basketball players thrive. So if any of you out there are athletes of team sports, especially full-contact ones, treat your fans and followers like friends and family. Don't condescend, take advantage of, or treat them like *I poop my pants, don't laugh at me*. They're the reason why you exist and the way you are. You are nothing without them. Your coaches and your training facilities are heavily funded because of the demands of your fans and followers wanting to watch you. Again, you are and would be nothing without them. But as for martial artists of various styles, they don't need fans. I have read about many obscure martial arts groups and schools(of obscure or foreign exotic fighting systems) who have deep passion for what they do even if the public ignores and doesn't even know they exist. They just like what they're doing and get the bonding and brotherhood from their fellow peers and teachers and not fans, outsiders, or the mainstream public. Team sport athletes, especially those of full-contact sports need their huge public crowds of fans and followers to feel complete about themselves in meaningful ways but martial artists don't. But martial artists exist by themselves even to the point of individuality. And this kind of freedom and privacy seem very serene and good in feeling. It's truly freeing. Compared to martial arts, non-fighting team sports like that seem artificial life and just games even to the point of being commercialized. And no, this isn't me *I poop my pants, don't laugh at me*ting on them. It's just how I feel in all honesty. Anyways, now back to the technicality part. By the way, some fans of mainstream team sports such as soccer, volleyball, baseball, basketball, hockey, American football, etc. say that they are just as technical as martial arts and their arguments are these: 1. Those team sports utilize teamwork when it comes to strategy and tactics. But this is very minimal in thinking compared to martial arts where you learn various techniques, combinations, body positioning, reading an opponent, transitioning from one style to another, combining styles, etc. and then applying all of those martial arts aspects in the middle of a sport martial arts fight. Also, most strategies and tactics of team sports rarely go according to plan because first, you ultimately can't read or control the minds and actions of your teammates regardless of cohesion and camaraderie so what happens is that the whole plan often gets abandoned. Second, enemy teammates often make sure and pressure your teammates into doing other things that are against your team's original plan. 2. This one is hilarious and downright comical. Those fans argue that basic movements in those team sports such as dribbling in basketball, soccer dribbling away from the enemy, volleyball spike, soccer bicycle kick, etc. require tactics, strategy, and thinking about them in the middle of the games. First of all, don't listen to those fans because that is the most ridiculous mistake you can make if you do. Those fans are crazy idiots. You get good at those basic body movements by practicing and drilling them over and over again to the point that they become instinct and you are able to do them efficiently without thinking about them. You don't think about them in the middle of the games like how some martial arts bullshido martial arts master tries his ridiculous fantasy techniques against real conflicts. It's funny because martial artists(the most technical sports) actually say that you don't think about inventing martial arts techniques in the middle of conflicts and just let your instinctive martial arts techniques born out of your martial arts training take over yet those stupid fans of those team sports say that you should think about doing those basic movements of those team sports in the middle of their games. Those fans are like the bullshido versions of non-fighting team sports. Many real-life athletes of those non-fighting team sports suffered multiple misfortunes for trying to heavily think about their basic moves in the middle of games. In real-life, most athletes of those non-fighting team sports do not spend the majority of their thinking and strategizing on their basic body movements and instead prioritize the majority of their brain power on their teammates and the enemy team such as when it comes to positions, locations, and proximity. I found it strange when I watched a video of a coach of a male American football saying that a basic touchdown of his sport requires the same technicality as a whole BJJ match and I also found it weird when some track-and-field athlete from my US public highschool said that his sport is as technical as Fencing. In my mind, I was like “What the f#%& are you talking about?!” without telling them in any way. Those people said them to me after my practice as a wrestler of my public highschool's male US Folkstyle Wrestling team. It was weird. _________ So yeah, if you're asking me which sports are the most technical, it's martial arts with BJJ being the most technical. It gets even more complicated in self-defense and real fights.

The first MMA fighter I talked to didn't say that the wrestling styles Greco-Roman, Freestyle, and US Folkstyle have no techniques or skills. He just said that they're nothing special in terms of that other than physical conditioning and weight cutting and he also said that some obscure folk wrestling styles such as Buno, Turkish Oil, Shuai Jiao, and Mongolian wrestling are even more technical and have more variety in skill set. Nobody. No human being can ever do that no matter what skill or training. Humans are just humans. Not gods.

Speaking of Buno, he also told me about Harimau Buno and Garimot Arnis. What is that? These are the only info I got about Buno, Harimau Buno, and Garimot Arnis: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buno_(wrestling) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garimot_Arnis https://www.kenfuderyu.co.za/Buno.htm Also, here's an info about Dumog: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumog

I am not here to argue aggressively about the wrestling sports of Greco-Roman, Freestyle, and US Folkstyle but am I right in my feeling that wrestlers are really only special in real-life and in MMA due to their physical conditioning? How did I get this feeling? Here's why: I just recently joined my local public highschool's male wrestling team. Of course, the style is American Folkstyle. I am a teenage male. What I remembered from what my coach told me was that he said that highschool wrestling is actually 90% physical conditioning and not techniques or sparring. He said to me that physical conditioning is what we will do 90% of the time. He also said that that is what makes wrestling hard and what also will set elite-level wrestlers especially Olympic level ones and All-American NCAA Collegiate level ones apart from others. He is right. It's tough. Another person who trains in a local MMA gym also told me that Greco-Roman Wrestling, Freestyle Wrestling, and US Folkstyle Wrestling are pretty much generic and are nothing special in terms of techniques, fight IQ, and vastness of skills compared to Brazilian Jiu-jitsu. He also told me the same thing about what my coach told me and that is that Olympic Wrestling and Highschool Wrestling are about physical conditioning and not about techniques, fight IQ, or wideness of array of skills. Speaking of him being an MMA fighter, he trains in Muay-Thai, Freestyle Wrestling, BJJ, and Western Boxing. He is an adult. He also told me that if you aren't an Olympic Wrestler or a US highschool wrestler and are instead a wrestler from independent gyms who either practices Greco-Roman, Freestyle, or US Folkstyle, then you shouldn't continue and instead just choose BJJ if you want to learn self-defense. He told me that BJJ is the real effective form of self-defense from that point on. He told me that without the infamous extreme exceptional physical conditioning of highschool wrestling and Olympic wrestling such as the physical conditioning HIIT(High-Intensity-Interval-Training), etc., wrestling(Greco-Roman, Freestyle, and US Folkstyle) itself just takes the backseat to other martial arts and combat sports such as Kyokushin, Judo, BJJ, Sambo, Western Boxing, Muay-Thai, Lethwei, Kickboxing, Kempo, Krav Maga, etc. especially in real-life self-defense scenarios. That's what he said. He told me that an Olympic Wrestler or an All-American collegiate NCAA Division I champion wrestler who learned some submissions will defeat a BJJ Black Belt but a white belt of pure BJJ will often submit and destroy an independent gym(not Olympic or highschool level) wrestler no matter what style(either Greco-Roman, Freestyle, or US Folkstyle) is the wrestler even if the wrestler learned some submissions. I kind of feel that all of what he said is true or am I wrong? Then, I tried to argue with him that wrestling styles can be one of the most effective regardless of the level of physical conditioning and the reason I gave him is that bodyslams often KO people in street fights and real-life violence. He then responded to me that instant bodyslam KOs are actually difficult and rarely happen. His reasoning is that knocking out someone by instant KO bodyslamming them becomes rarer and rarer if the person you are trying to bodyslam is as strong as you, is highly aggressive, is very aware of his surroundings, is the same size or bigger than you, has a survivor mentality, is actively facing you and not surprised attacked, and is actually resisting ferociously. He also said to me that instant KO bodyslamming the person is rarer if the person is trained in combat styles especially grappling ones such as Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, Aikido, Judo, Sambo, Shuai Jiao, etc. Although I am highly skeptical of what he said, a huge part of me feels that what he just said is right. Most of the instant bodyslam KOs I have seen in real-life and in Internet videos are typically in these conditions and factors below: 1. The person slamming is male while the one getting slammed is female. 2. The person slamming is far stronger than who he is slamming. 3. The person getting slammed is not aggressive or resisting and more like intimidated, trying to stop, trying to de-escalate, and also run away. 4. The person slamming is significantly larger than the one getting slammed. 5. The person slamming is a well-built adult while the person getting slammed is a kid. 6. The person slamming surprise-attacked and sneaked up on the one who got slammed. __________ He told me that compared to what's seen on pop media entertainment where dumb huge hulking/fat stupid brutes instant KO bodyslam everyone with ease, executing real instant KO bodyslams in real life actually requires extreme precision, extreme focus, and extreme finesse especially against aggressive individuals or trained combatants. Aside from all of that, I have personally seen or heard reports of some Olympic wrestlers and highschool wrestlers that got into real fights, they won a lot but as for their independent gym counterparts that I have seen or heard reports about, most them got their asses beat and kicked by many individuals who aren't wrestlers. The MMA fighter adult that I talked to also got me to know his brother. The brother told me that Freestyle Wrestling, Greco-Roman Wrestling, and US Folkstyle Wrestling are not really special in terms of technical skills and wideness of skills and are only special due to their physical conditioning. He also told me that if physical conditioning is not in the equation, other wrestling styles such as the obscure Filipino folk wrestling styles of Buno and Dumog are the ones who are highly technical and have a variety of skills compared to the wrestling styles Greco-Roman, Freestyle, and US Folkstyle. He also told me that if physical conditioning is out of the window, Buno and Dumog are the ones who are effective and lethal in real fights. He told me that the reason is because Dumog and Buno are optimized for weaponry and also in real-fights, real violence, street fights, and military wars compared to Greco-Roman Wrestling, Freestyle Wrestling, and US Folkstyle Wrestling that are built for sport. That's what he said. Is he right? Also, what is Dumog and Buno? Anybody know that? I have never heard of them. My final question is this: Is highschool wrestling and Olympic wrestling really more about physical conditioning? To me it seems that way. Please correct me if I am wrong.

What do you mean?

Actually, highschool wrestling seems kind of scary. Highschool gridiron football(it's American Football) players make up the majority of highschool wrestling teams. Most highschool male gridiron football players are also highschool wrestlers. I know that highschool gridiron football teams are always big bullies. It's not a stereotype. It's a fact to the whole USA. Those who play highschool American Football often make up the majority of bullies in the USA and are often the worst of the worst in USA bullying. Highschool gridiron footballers don't just target nerds. They target other "losers" and outcasts such as goths, blind kids, poor kids, etc. They aren't bullies because of nerds. They are bullies because they are bullies. Without nerds, they'll still be bullies and just find other targets. There's a truth to the stereotype and the cliche entertainment media depiction of highschool gridiron football teams always being the bullies to nerds. I just watched a movie called Bomb City. It was based on a real-life conflict between punk rockers and highschool gridiron football players. The conflict was started due to highschool gridiron football players' bigotry towards punk rockers in general. The footballers often bullied the punk rockers. The conflict got so bad that it often lead to physical fights. But it didn't there. What happened is that a punk rocker by the name of Brian Deneke was ran over to death by the highschool gridiron football player Dustin Camp. Dustin Camp ran him over by using his caddy. Here is a link to the movie's trailer: Here below is a link to the movie. It's free to watch. Watch Bomb City on Tubi: https://link.tubi.tv/BWhhI9PBOSb Also, here is a link to the real-life incident regarding the case of Brian Deneke and Dustin Camp: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Brian_Deneke _______ I am not a member of the punk rock subculture but the thought of this conflict scares me.

Hello! I am an eccentric introverted nerd teen male who loves Anime, Video Games, STEM(Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics), and Chess. I am not shy but I am kind of socially-awkward. I am not shy. I just love being quiet, friendless, and alone. Speaking of STEM and Chess, I am highly skilled in the two of them. But I also want to join my US public highschool's male wrestling team. I am currently a US public highschool student. Am I gonna get bullied and ostracized? Do you people in Intermat hate nerds?