Matthew Burns

Local opinion was "cancelling sports at Stanford" was largely about the college admissions scandal.

Koll is missing recruits from the Borelli era because Stanford was taking bribes and hiding dollars in their recruiting process. Was wrestling involved? I don't know. When the Cardinal announced they were cancelling athletic programs in the wake of scandal, those sports picked up a stink.  The odor doesn't leave quickly.

The Koll hire was widely praised in this neck of the woods. He should have known straight up what he was getting into. It's no mystery that academics keep a lot of blue chips out of Palo Alto. High level perennial success will take time.  

As far as "I'm not buying a team" goes...meh. Your employer was likely selling sham spots on that team. Sell the virtue elsewhere.

Vertus Jones is a favorite of mine.

Nice add at 125

Makes me wonder about Robbie Howards health. Sanderson isn't above upgrading or adding depth, but Howard can't fart without getting injured.

57 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

understood. 

but i'd say Pat Smith (who's a 4xer) and Greg Jones (3xer with less career losses than Kyle Dake) are far less referenced/lauded than Ruth or Nolf.

I'll own up to a recency bias on that.

I think there is less debate that Smith and Jones were both regarded as the best guy on their team. Both won as freshmen which established them as elite from the word "go". They also came from some pretty killer families wrestling wise.

5 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

how are they 'underappreciated' though? 

they were wholly lauded/beloved at the time, and are still revered now.

i don't understand. 

unless (no offense) you have an inaccurate assessment of what the public perception is/has been. 

 

The subject is a bit of a reach, so the conversation will have to be as well. Nolf and Ruth both have team mates with multiple Hodge trophies.

It's like trying to pick "the ugliest Playboy Playmate ever". We are living in a land that is pretty far from ugly.

I bounce back and forth between Nolf and Ruth.

I always believed both guys would win no matter who they were facing. They both had that "sleepy" kind of dominance Cael Sanderson did. Unteachable feel, endless gas tanks. Both get overlooked a little because their team mates were also otherworldly.

Back in his ISU days I had hoped he and Dayton Fix were going to have a 4 season rivalry for Big 12 dominance.

It was cool to see him in the Big 10 even after he left 133 behind. Though a rematch with RBY would have been killer to watch. He and Desanto were a great matchup as well, two junkyard dogs.

Hope his health is good. That was aways his biggest issue.

It's pretty much all we have to grouse about for the dead months.

I understand Dan Gable took "a big bag of NIL money" from PSU to be the janitor.

I remember a season a few years back where PSU looked to have nothing but hammers.

Cassar, Connel, and Berge all had season ending injuries.

Life happens to wrestlers. 

Montell Marion waited till the last 20 seconds of a period to try and score.

Pair that with smothering defense from neutral. 

I believe he would have won a title had he opened up his offense. Reminds me of Dayton Fix that way. 

8 hours ago, PortaJohn said:

Penn State would rip through that Iowa lineup after the lightweights except if Iowa started sophomore year Mocco

David Taylor's loses came from matchups where he was bullied; Dake and Jenkins. Joe Williams certainly fits that mold.

Nolf's losses are to Isiah Martinez who was freakishly strong in his stance, an analog for Zalesky.

From neutral I'll take McIlravy all day over Retherford. Train will have to score his points on the mat, but that's his wheelhouse.

I was hopeful that a few guys would actually talk strengths, weaknesses, and matchups. The whole " modern wrestlers are vastly superior" argument doesn't hold water. That's no my opinion, but the words of modern wrestlers. The whole "coach still kicks everyone's tail" is a common story; Sanderson, Brands, Bono, Zeke, all still schooling the young bucks.

I'll say Iowa wins the three lightest weights out the gate. Even if I mess with the Lineup and start;

Barry Davis, Mark Ironside, Tom Brands.

The only match I don't see as a coin flip would be Nickal at 197. That's a lot of matches to steal.

Missing a 149.

I'm guessing Retherford.

Mark Schultz caddies for him whenever he golfs.

53 minutes ago, Wrestej said:

You said he only had 3 years of eligibility.  He had 4.  His total number of pins were for four years of competition.  Yes he had 19 more than Ben.  

Concur.

Four years of competition. 

Shut out of one post season per transfer rules. I often incorrectly just chalk that up to the "freshman didn't compete" era. Off by a few years on that.

18 hours ago, Wrestej said:

Yes, but he did compete for four years.

Relevant in terms of my statement about his pins.

3 hours ago, Wrestej said:

91 pins.  Enough said.

109 dwarfs that. 

Would you make a similar argument for Wade Schalles? He is basically Ben Askren 1.0 with 20 percent more pins back in 3 year eligibility phase.

2 hours ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

Thanks.  And when did Nolf and Ruth win their Hodges?

Should read "8 of 10". I have old eyes and fat fingers.

Nolph and Ruth didn't win Hodges. I realize I left Taylor off. Simply my preference.

Modern weight class parade of hammers

125 Spencer Lee
133 Logan Stieber
141 Kyle Dake
149 Zain Retherford
157 Jason Nolf
165 Alex Deirhringer
174 Ed Ruth
184 Cael Sanderson
197 Bo Nikal
285 Gable Stevenson

9 of the 10 have Hodge trophies. The lone exception has 2 losses and a medical forfeit in 4 seasons. Recency bias? Sure. The weights help dictate that.

13 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

Isn't the discussion at their BEST who wins? Who was the most unbeatable.

Cael was elite all 4 years, but at his best, really nobody was challenging him. 

Stevenson though...he looked like he was toying with guys. Nobody was close to him. So what may have happened this year...and I believe Parris maybe keeps the match closer, but it's still an easy Gable win.

My money is on Gable Stevenson 2022. I don't think that's recency bias, but I also didn't see the likes of Schultz and Kemp in their primes. 

Also, the original Gable seemed to dominate until one final match, but again, different era. 

It is.

I wonder if 2023 Steveson would have dwarfed the 2022 version.

I'm comparing Cortlands to McIntosh.

I don't what lines you are reading between where I might favor Parris. I don't. I simply gave credit to his season.

Lee's knees didn't get him pinned. He got caught in a head pinch and defended it wrong. And the point was we watch sports for the unscripted drama. The underdogs and upsets. Two unbeaten wrestlers battling it out. We watch because nothing is a sure thing.

26 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

What does reverence have to do with anything as far as match prediction goes?

Gable Steveson would have won a Folkstyle wrestling match.  Period.

Gable would have easily won this year, too.  He would be a 3x Hodge winner had he wrestled.  Mason Stevesonson would have gotten destroyed.

Would you agree or disagree Parris was the best version of himself we have seen? I say he is. Disagree if you like.

Would you have liked to see Steveson in the tournament 1 more time considering he was eligible? My answer is "yes please". He chose to end things as a two time champ, so that's what he is.

I would put Gable as a heavy favorite vs Parris today. I'll leave it to others to drop opinions as fact. Every year we see a few heavily favored athletes fail to win their weight class.  There was an example of that at 125? Kid from Purdue spoiled some dudes run for 4?

The other guy gets to wrestle.

50 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

I think this might end up being a Gable Steveson VS Cael Sanderson final.

Steveson probably wins it.

I would have that sort of reverence for Steveson had he run the gauntlet a third time. Especially considering Parris pulling the Hodge this year.

Another mention,

2016 Alex Dierhringer.  The loss he took in the NCAA tournament as a freshman seemed to awaken his inner Hulk. He pretty much smashed everyone for the next 3 seasons.

A very ham and eggs sort of style, but automatic. No holes in his game.

I'm pretty Penn State centric.

That said Parris earned the Hodge. Putting the competition on their backs matters.

Next year look for 33 Hodge finalists. I wonder who the pigtail candidate will be.