To your questions …
Mark Hall vs. Bo Jordan is an anticipated matchup when PSU battles Ohio State (Photo/Tony Rotundo, WrestlersAreWarriors.com)Q: Can you think of any other dual meet in the past 50 years that rivals the upcoming Ohio State at Penn State dual?
Out of the 20 wrestlers expected to compete:
The fact that the match is in Rec Hall, thereby assuring a hostile environment of 6,150 Penn State fans compared to about 50 Ohio State fans only adds to the epic nature of the battle. As a fan of wrestling, I'm so happy that both teams feature an entertaining style with wrestlers who emphasize offense and putting points on the board throughout the match. What a showcase for our great sport!
Can you think of a better, more entertaining two hours of wrestling than the potential that this dual features?
-- DD
Foley: I'm not sure we need to test history to scale the most anticipated and (quasi) consequential wrestling matches of the season. Penn State and Ohio State are teeming with technical, aggressive wrestlers with absolute belief in their ability to dominate opponents.
So what does happen when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object?
While dramatic, the dual would benefit from increased stakes. As media-friendly a matchup as this is within the wrestling community, there is no impact on the NCAA team race whatsoever. No team seeds to be determined, or jockeying to be had. This is an up-and-down contest, that'll be remembered as exceptional, but otherwise of no lasting consequence.
The wrestling community talks a lot about breaking into the mainstream in a meaningful way. For many, the stated goal is to make the dual season matter more and in doing so hook in larger media forces and drive college sports fans (with overarching tribal commitments) to watch their beloved institutions. Arguments against the system in part pivot on the idea that the individual tournament is too valuable, dual meets can be decided by irregularities, and a general apathy towards serious change.
Now the No. 1 and No. 2 teams in the country are set to face each other and the larger sports audience can't be convinced to care because the match has zero impact on the team race.
The individual championships are a wonderful weekend of wrestling, but why should the sport have only one weekend of competition to lure in fans from around the nation? Why can't we see the race build up in a team-oriented construct? The NCAA basketball bracket is popular in part because it takes four weeks to execute and has clearly defined teams and paths. The football series means that most games matter.
The NCAA wrestling tournament has almost no build-up and its only real tradition is that it happens to fall near St. Patrick's Day.
When you watch the match, try to think about what viewership number might be if the NCAA team title was somehow being influenced by the outcome of the match.
Q: This past week I got a chance to watch the Oklahoma State vs. Iowa match, which was fairly entertaining, if nothing else, due to the amount of ranked wrestlers. Admittedly, I don't get a chance to watch much of Oklahoma State prior to the NCAAs. I'm a PSU fan so I mainly see Big Ten wrestling, but wow there are a lot of Oklahoma State guys who are kind of painful to watch due to inaction and complacency when leading. I get that other schools do this, but Oklahoma State? They're supposed to be premiere. Anyway, the match Dean Heil won was just the epitome of it. He could be a three-time national champ and seems to never win by more than a few points. Just compare his action and points scored to any other three-time champ and I'm sure it's just terrible. How can this be fixed? More stall calls? A shot clock?
-- Ryan P.
Foley: Coach Smith has said his Oklahoma State squad was less than impressive in their dual meet loss against Iowa. Like you witnessed, the team was sluggish, wrestling on their heels and only edging out victories. The Oklahoma State model has never been to run up points on opponents, but I agree with you that the match showcased little of the zing and punch we are used to seeing from Cowboy wrestlers.
College wrestling features a complicated rule set that heavily favors CONTROL over TECHNIQUE with action further being suffocated by and out-of-bounds rule with almost no mooring in logic and with no equivalency in sport (wrestling or ball-based). Where else in sport is the out-of-bounds controlled by the pinky toe of one athlete. That rule is asinine.
Out of bounds and control-based rules are what causes nights like you witnessed, where a sluggish team hangs around and edges out some wins but otherwise phones in their effort. The rules don't force action.
Some of the boredom you witnessed also stems from the riding time point, which was instituted in an effort to reward top wrestling in the hopes of seeing more falls. Well, NCAA wrestling and freestyle wrestling have similar rates of falls and there is very little done to encourage top wrestling outside of making wrestlers return to their feet after 10-12 seconds of inaction on the mat.
In my opinion, wrestling would see a dramatic increase in meaningful scoring if they made out of bounds actually out of bounds, took away riding time, and returned wrestlers to neutral if there was no threat of back points in 20 seconds. (Call it 'riding time' except you are given a standard amount of time to work before being brought back to your feet and there is no incentive to stay on top.)
So, simple question with a long answer, but I think that the college wrestling rules are broken at a fundamental level. Too much gamesmanship, not enough action.
Q: Why do you think so many American fans think taking shots and failing to score is a reason to award that wrestler?
-- Matt C.
Foley: Because they grew up watching Iowa Public Television dual meets where 10,000 fans screamed "STALLING!" the moment a wrestler in a black singlet took a drop step.
It's true. That's the reason. It's burned in our collective psyche that pressure, position and half shots are signs of aggressive wrestling.
But by the way, much the same can be said of Greco-Roman fans in European countries who love yelling "PASSIVE" just because their wrestler is pushing and blocking off. Different cause, but same result.
Q: What are your thoughts on Final X?
-- Scott M.
Foley: Well, if you haven't seen the back-and-forth between Xander Schultz and the Flo Bros then you're really missing out! Lots of heat.
There is no question that Final X was born out of PROWL. Is it better than what PROWL had planned? Worse? I think that you'll find a multitude of opinions from wrestlers and those who had insight on PROWL.
Overall, I think that the idea to create a team selection broken into three events was bold and will prove to generate much more interest in the sport, both in the locations where they are being hosted and in the national press. The local ties will bring out many more fans than we are used to seeing in Las Vegas or other neutral locations.
As for pay, I'm not a professional wrestler, but overall the American wrestlers have it pretty OK in terms of payments to participate in a non-headlining sport. I meet with international wrestlers all year long and the large majority of them have absolutely zero support. Zero.
Remember Turtogtokh of The Citadel? He returned to Mongolia to try out for their national team. Last week he won a spot at 92 kilograms and will compete at the Asian Championships in Bishkek. Know how much he has been paid to train over the last four years? Zero.
Olympic silver medalist and world champion Zhan Beleniuk has made less than $50,000 for his titles and lives with his mom in an 800-square foot apartment in Kiev.
Team USA is very, very fortunate to have the national team funding, support of patrons, sponsoring clubs, clinic schedules and college coaching opportunities to make a living. Of course, I would like to see all of our wrestlers making more money, but it's important to keep some perspective on their relative wealth as compared to other nations around the world. America is doing more than alright.
I think Final X is a start in terms of promoting the sport and providing an increase in winnings to some of the winners. All the rest of the drama you can read about on Twitter.
Q: I heard some speculation that Seth Gross may bump up and wrestle Bryce Meredith this week. I think this is a great idea. I never believed in protecting an undefeated record, and bumping up to face a top guy can really help. If Gross loses, the pressure of being undefeated is off at NCAAs and I think it helps his chances of winning an national title. If he wins and goes undefeated, more evidence he could win the Hodge. Thoughts?
-- Dave, NY
Foley: I was looking at the statistics for the wrestler being considered for a Hodge trophy; did you know that Zain Train is 16-0 with 13 pins, 2 techs and 1 major decision? Should he keep up that pace I'm not sure we need much more of a discussion regarding the winner of the Hodge.
Seth Gross bumping up is good theater and a smart decision by the coaching staff to stretch their wrestler's toughness before arriving in Cleveland. I know that the comparison isn't one-to-one due to the threat of submissions, but jiu-jitsu fighters are constantly rolling with athletes many times heavier, and winning with some regularity. Eight pounds may seem significant, but I don't think it should always be the first item mentioned when discussing the overall outcome of the match.
Helen Maroulis (Photo/Tony Rotundo, WrestlersAreWarriors.com)Q: How surprised were you that Helen Maroulis took a loss in India's pro wrestling league?
-- Mike C.
Foley: Very surprised. Pooja hasn't been in competition since 2014 and from the articles I read today had been more or less sidelined since a knee injury in 2015. The match is below, but Pooja scored from a funky position early, impressing with her mat and body awareness. The clincher came at the start of the second when Pooja hit a beautiful high-level double leg for four points.
India is tricky. While no loss is good, I'm not shocked, if only because the level of competition inside India is world-class and the country can be a big adjustment for Americans in terms of diet, time zone and general culture shock.
MULTIMEDIA HALFTIME
Sally Roberts and "Wrestle Like a Girl"
Helen Maroulis loses in India
Q: Longtime lover of your Friday mailbag. Love how you often blast double (to the great chagrin of many readers) issues of injustice and bigotry. As a wrestler this presidency has brought to light the hateful views of many of my long time "friends." Thoughts on handling this?
-- @terpteets
Foley: I recently read an apology post from a well-known colleague in the Olympic movement who expressed regret airing his opinions about Trump and recent racist remarks. The apology post essentially said that he'd failed to keep a promise to himself to keep his keyboard silent and that the original post had cost him a friendship of 30-plus years.
For the most part, we know who amongst our friends and colleagues are in support of which politicians. Ninety-nine percent of the time confronting the vocal crowd is pointless unless you try real engagement ("explain to me what you mean by x,y,z") since that has been shown to be the effective in triggering self-reflection in others. Most of us are just caught in an echo chamber, clamoring to be heard by others of our ideology and tribe. It's a want to belong and feel OK about your position, which is understandable.
Listening to a friend defend the ideals of white supremacy doesn't make you a white supremacist, but it will provide the clarity you need to decide whether or not to listen to their advice in your time of need, or to allow them to watch your children.
And that's where I am on the matter. The only place I think we need to be more cautions with our handling of colleagues who lack core traits we want to see in our own children. For example, there are youth coaches who use their platform to support racist ideologies, promote conspiracy theories, or parrot the close-minded attitudes should be outed and banned from ever coaching again. There is absolutely no amount of proper wrestling technique, no trophy big enough to put you child in the temporary care of an individual who harbors dangerous ideas about the world. That's not saying we can't allow our kids to be coached by a Republican or a Democrat, but instead by someone who holds racists or otherwise outlandish and dangerous beliefs.
A few years ago I called out a well-known youth wrestling coach for his vocal denial of the tragedy of Sandy Hook. (He claimed it was a false flag attempt by the Obama administration to take away guns … no, seriously.) That coach has since blocked me from his accounts, but under no circumstances would I ever allow a child I know to be in his care or under his tutelage. Our sport is FILLED with talented and compassionate men and women who will teach our next generation to be fair and honest. We don't need that type of sick thinking near our youth.
There are other youth coaches with similarly bizarre and hateful outlooks. The conspiracy theorists, the drug abusers, and the simply unhinged. With the absolute depravity being exposed in the trail of the doctor for USA Gymnastics, now is the appropriate time for our community to ponder who we exalt, and why. Because if sick men remain dominant influences in the lives of our youth wrestlers then we risk our values of community, mutual respect and fair treatment of others for the possibility of more medals.
Q: Is Cory Clark done competing?
-- Scott M.
Foley: No. He will be competing next week at the Ivan Yarygin in Krasnoyarsk!
Q: Jason Nolf of Penn State vs. Jake Tucker of Michigan State. Nolf stands to his feet, Tucker locks his hands, Nolf puts his hand down on the mat. Ref calls locked hands, commentators even said that should be an unsportsmanlike conduct point according to the rules against Nolf. Nolf eacapes, takes him down, and pins him. If the MSU coach had challenged that call, the call could have (would have) been overturned, would that mean pin is waved off and match restarts at the point of the penalty? They are applying in takedowns that are called too early. Wondering if same applies here. Thanks!
-- Frank C.
Foley: I suppose you could challenge a bad call, but locked hands doesn't stop a match unless the offender improves his position. Because this could have only been an unsportsmanlike and no advantage was gained by the offending locked hands, I don't think the outcome would be affected.
Any referees care to build on the scenarios and provide additional clarity?
Q: I love dual meets, but HATE the scoring. Here is a tweak I propose. What do you think? Team points are simply the accumulation of a matches individual score, with pins worth 22 points (how I got there in a second). So, a big problem right now, is guys who are up 10 points with 45 seconds left don't chase the tech. They secure the major. What if a 12-point lead mattered?
A technical fall brings the balance of the scoring to +15 for the winning wrestler … in theory. You can tech someone by as many as 21 points (If you are up 14, have riding time secured, and hit a 6-point move, you win by 21). Since the theoretical max for a tech is 21, then a pin should be worth 22 (no other points scored by either wrestler in a pin get added).
This would make every match more exciting, would make sense to a viewer, and would help casual fans.
What do you think?
-- Anil C.
Foley: I'm not sure about the separation between technical fall and pin being so large, since I've literally never seen someone get teched by 21 points. However, you also want to incentivize the fall so an additional five or six points seems about right.
Would this actually encourage more active wrestling? And wouldn't a single match with a large differential make an otherwise competitive match less-so? Would it maybe be better to simply increase the points and number of winnable categories?
+1-4pts = 1-4 team points
+5-9 = 7 team points
+10-15 = 11 team points
Fall = 14 team points
In my scoring scenario 15 points is just to signal the end of competitive match. There is no need to award more team points for an additional tilt, when capping it creates a more competitive team race.
I'm liking your logic! Good stuff.
Q: I agree with getting rid of riding time. I also would suggest that the wrestler on top should be allowed to cut the bottom man and return the action to the neutral without giving up and "escape" point. My one caveat would be that this can only be done after a break in the action like going out of bounds, blood time, or the start of a period where it is clear that the bottom wrestler didn't "earn" anything and shouldn't be awarded an escape point. If there is a takedown and the top man desires to cut the bottom man loose while the action is still going then there is an escape point willfully given by the top man in exchange to return to neutral and that is his strategic decision.
So now we have removed the incentive to just simply ride for time and we have mostly removed the penalty for wanting the action to return to neutral. What do you think?
This would also cut back on this situation: Wrestler 1 is dominant and gets four takedowns in the first period followed by cutting Wrestler 2 four times. Wrestler 2 begins the second period on bottom and is cut loose. It's 8-5 in a totally one-sided match! This doesn't make sense and this match will go on longer than it needs to.
-- Dustin K.
Foley: Agreed that it might be a better scenario, but if the offensive wrestler is also allowed to ride on top for limitless amount of time it's pretty likely that 8-point leads will be sat on, or more appropriate, LAID on.
STORY OF THE WEEK
By Sean M.
I am a fan of wrestling, a coach and still a student of the sport. I love wrestling, what it is and what it can be for people. Every now and then, not that I need them, I get little reminders of just how special the sport is.
I was working the clock at our local high school's senior night dual last night. It was interesting because while boasting a very large roster, we only had three seniors, and only one is regularly in the starting lineup. Despite that, all three seniors had a chance to compete.
The regular starter got a solid win over a good opponent who was favored over him, another, who has been in and out of the lineup due to injury throughout his career, also notched a win.
The third senior, who has been in the club/high school program for seven years, was making his varsity debut, and it was under the spotlight. Despite never cracking the lineup, this kid goes to every practice, always has a positive attitude, goes to every meet and is the first to volunteer to work the clock or book when we host tournaments for the middle school and club (and we host quite a few). He has become infamous in his ability to fundraise and was the anchor when the wrestling team defeated the girl's soccer team at this year's "Battle of the Bones" (a fundraiser where the kids sell pork steak dinners then have a chicken wing eating contest).
He walks out for the first time in a varsity singlet and I'm not going to lie, it didn't look great starting out. The other kid was just a bit bigger, a bit stronger and a bit more athletic, but he kept battling, and his opponent started to fade. He showed the tenacity and stick-to-it-iveness that you may come to expect from someone who will hang around for four years without cracking the lineup. As his opponent started to tire, he began to climb back, taking him down then hooking an ankle and cranking a three-quarter nelson for the fall.
I have been around wrestling for a long time and have been a part of and witness to some very big wins. I do not believe I have ever heard a bench erupt with cheers of this magnitude. As the clock worker, I am supposed to act unbiased, but knowing the back story, I couldn't contain myself. The crowd shared the same sentiment, while there was a full house, not a seat was taken at that moment.
This kid will likely never set foot on a mat again as a competitor, but this moment will remain with him forever. The attitude, grit, and dedication he has shown over the past four years will last a lifetime and allow him to be successful no matter what path he chooses to take.
I sat on the couch later that night thinking about how special this sport really is. Few other activities could allow him that opportunity. To go out there and earn a victory in front of his home crowd in that environment, on that night, is truly special. It all goes to show that you do not have to be an all-star for this sport to mean something. You do not have to become a state champ in order to learn what hard work and dedication are. And you do not have to be a world champion to touch the lives of others. I think everyone who was a witness to what happened last night in Edwardsville, Illinois, will remember it forever. I know I will.
Recommended Comments
There are no comments to display.
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now