Should NCAA wrestling adopt all or some freestyle rules?

[Scouts Honor]

9 minutes ago, Spladle08 said:

I just don't like people abusing it, get back to the middle 

what i dont like is people not LETTING people back to the middle

that used to be considered stalling

[Spladle08]

1 minute ago, Scouts Honor said:

what i dont like is people not LETTING people back to the middle

that used to be considered stalling

Thats fair. interesting. 

[forkemaz]

13 minutes ago, Scouts Honor said:

the step out is not wrestling

if we really feel this much about staying in bounds... put it in the octagon.

cage matches!!

 

however, as i have said many times

edge wrestling is EXCITING

Chael actually did have freestyle in the octagon it was terrible lol. You can watch it on ufc fight pass. What would be amazing is the karate combat pit. But i get laughed at when ever i suggest it. Also it would be an expensive overhaul.

[1032004]

2 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I am not convinced that has anything to do wirh the style, but with the tribalism. PSU fans tune in to see PSU. Hawkeye fans tune in to see Hawkeyes. And so on. Swap free for folk and you still have tribes. If you still have tribes, you still have fans.

I think the answer to the title of the thread depends what the goal is.  If the goal is to improve our international performance, there is probably some benefit to switching to freestyle from folkstyle.  How much, I’m not sure.

If the goal is to increase viewership, I don’t see how it would help.  I agree that the tribe aspect would mean we shouldn’t lose many of the existing fans, but I’m not sure where new ones would come from unless colleges recruit a bunch of guys from India or something.

 

2 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Prove? No. But I do think Olympic swimming is a good natural experiment. No one, besides me, cares about swimming between the Olympics (huge mistake everyone), but when it is about country medal counts, and in a sport where the US racks up medals year after year, it is center stage to the point that a wrestling message board obssesses over how unfair it is that Michael Phelps is considered the GOAT.

Continuing on my last point, isn’t the fact that NCAA swimming doesn’t have many fans evidence that switching college to freestyle wouldn’t mean more viewers?

[alex1fly]

Soccer is huge internationally but USA professional soccer has low viewership. Even though the USA women’s has won the World Cup and just won the Olympics. So I don’t think you can claim that switching to freestyle wrestling would increase viewership. 

[billyhoyle]

3 hours ago, alex1fly said:

I worry a bit about the throws and kids health. 
 

Disagree that freestyle is a better product. Different.
 

Would be an interesting switch though for sure. Curious what athletes think about it, they’re the ones actually doing it. 

You can ban high amplitude throws. Or maybe ban them in HS but not college. Or maybe allow them if the attacking wrestler can ensure the opponent lands on his back and not neck, kind of like we have now with folkstyle where you can throw and mat return, but only if it’s under control. There are ways to adjust the rules so that there are still the awesome throws we see in freestyle, but not the ones that are super dangerous.

Edited August 11 by billyhoyle

[FolkForLife]

This is the same exact argument that was repeatedly revisited in the early/late 2000’s when our freestyle teams were perennially underperforming.

And despite maintaining folkstyle as our historical/national/collegiate developmental style, we have witnessed some of the most successfully international careers in US (and World) history since the 2010’s wrestling renaissance when the Olympics almost dropped wrestling altogether.  

Team USA won the 2023 World Wrestling Championships less than a year ago, with every member of the team having gone through the folkstyle system.  Regarding current Olympic team members: Kyle Snyder won an Olympic title while still actively competing in collegiate folkstyle competition in 2016.  4x NCAA Champion Kyle Dake was a 4x freestyle World Champion during the last two Olympic cycles. 

The men’s Olympic team undoubtedly underperformed this year, but folkstyle simply had nothing to do with it.  

[CHROMEBIRD]

2 hours ago, Spladle08 said:

Obviously learning to scramble without exposing your back is way up there in developing a Freestyle based takedown game. 

But for me personally, I'd like to see step-out and no overtime, implemented. 
I think it would make a better overall product.

Imo, freestyle would be a better product with OT. Criteria is confusing to casual fans, and we've even had instances of wrestlers thinking they were up on criteria during a match when they weren't. The pacing of international tournaments already incentivizes wrestlers to take care of business as quickly as possible without sapping themselves in long OT matches. No need for criteria.

[Caveira]

28 minutes ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

Imo, freestyle would be a better product with OT. Criteria is confusing to casual fans, and we've even had instances of wrestlers thinking they were up on criteria during a match when they weren't. The pacing of international tournaments already incentivizes wrestlers to take care of business as quickly as possible without sapping themselves in long OT matches. No need for criteria.

Where are the calls to change college and high school to Greco?   Why do they get no love…. Do y’all freestyle peeps not like that sport?

[CHROMEBIRD]

1 minute ago, Caveira said:

Where are the calls to change college and high school to Greco?   Why do they get no love…. Do y’all freestyle peeps not like that sport?

What are you talking about? I wasn't talking about changing college to freestyle, I was talking about changing freestyle to freestyle.

[Caveira]

2 minutes ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

What are you talking about? I wasn't talking about changing college to freestyle, I was talking about changing freestyle to freestyle.

Was intended at those that were.  Maybe I shouldn’t have quoted you….. 

[Spladle08]

10 minutes ago, Caveira said:

Where are the calls to change college and high school to Greco?   Why do they get no love…. Do y’all freestyle peeps not like that sport?

I'm not a big fan, but it's 97% to do with our lack of competitiveness.
Which is 100% related to folkstyle in no way mirroring Greco.

IF we only offered Freestlye/Greco from 5years old through college, 100% we would be the absolute most dominant country in the world in Freestyle and we'd make a ridiculous rise in Greco. 

But there's enough die-hard Folk fans that its not worth arguing. 

But to answer your question. The lack of competitiveness + my personal lack of knowledge of elite technique, keeps  me less interested in the overall product (of Greco).  

[ChickenWing]

Since no one has mentioned it I guess I'm in the minority but I think the leg lace exposure scoring in freestyle is stupid.

 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

19 minutes ago, ChickenWing said:

Since no one has mentioned it I guess I'm in the minority but I think the leg lace exposure scoring in freestyle is stupid.

 

That seems to be a common opinion. 
 

I like a good lace. If someone doesn’t want to get teched, stay away from the lace. 

[Caveira]

17 minutes ago, ChickenWing said:

Since no one has mentioned it I guess I'm in the minority but I think the leg lace exposure scoring in freestyle is stupid.

 

So are:

push outs 

grounding….   Stupid rule   

confusing passivity calls 

3 refs … a judge… etc   

3-3 scores with one winning on criteria 

shot clocks 

10-0 techs in 28 seconds with 4 flippy flippy leg laces (stole from you)  

no real wrestle backs 

2 bronze medals 

bad seeding rules 

……..brought to by by the people that thought the ball grab was a good idea…. Let’s go be that sport ha   

 

[Wrestleknownothing]

3 hours ago, 1032004 said:

I think the answer to the title of the thread depends what the goal is.  If the goal is to improve our international performance, there is probably some benefit to switching to freestyle from folkstyle.  How much, I’m not sure.

If the goal is to increase viewership, I don’t see how it would help.  I agree that the tribe aspect would mean we shouldn’t lose many of the existing fans, but I’m not sure where new ones would come from unless colleges recruit a bunch of guys from India or something.

 

Continuing on my last point, isn’t the fact that NCAA swimming doesn’t have many fans evidence that switching college to freestyle wouldn’t mean more viewers?

I was arguing the improvement internationally angle.

I also argued attention and attendance would not be harmed by the switch in styles because attention and attendance are driven by tribalism much more than style.

It was suggested that attendance and attention differences between OTT and the NCAA tournament came down to style. I argued it was about the lack of tribalism, not the difference in style.

[Spladle08]

31 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

That seems to be a common opinion. 
 

I like a good lace. If someone doesn’t want to get teched, stay away from the lace. 

I knew I liked you for some reason

[1032004]

24 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I was arguing the improvement internationally angle.

I also argued attention and attendance would not be harmed by the switch in styles because attention and attendance are driven by tribalism much more than style.

It was suggested that attendance and attention differences between OTT and the NCAA tournament came down to style. I argued it was about the lack of tribalism, not the difference in style.

Got it, mostly agree although I guess depends on your definition of “harmed.”  Maybe not a significant number but I think we definitely lose some fans particularly in the short term if college switched to freestyle.

We probably lose some youth wrestlers too assuming we make the switch at all levels.

The biggest challenge IMO would be coaches.  I’d guess something like 90% of youth/high school coaches have little if any freestyle experience.

[alex1fly]

1 hour ago, ChickenWing said:

Since no one has mentioned it I guess I'm in the minority but I think the leg lace exposure scoring in freestyle is stupid.

 

I kind of agree? There seem to be two moves in par terre, leg laces and guts. We would lose all the awesome tilts and pinning combinations. 

[AgaveMaria]

Keep riding time but call fairly stalling when the top guy is not actively working for a pin and the bottom guy is content tl lay there without trying for an escape or reversal. When that happens, award a point to  the wrestler not called for stalling(after one or two warnings?) and put them on their feet.

Push out for a point - as well as one for fleeing the mat. Will help if mats have the colored section next to the edge as the Olympic/freestyle mats have.

On competition. A lot more international meets. Practice is fine but you hone the edge with competition. Send our wrestlers to a lot of international meets.

USA Wrestling lobby hard to make tournaments Double Elimination. The "one and done" makes it difficult for some to justify the cost of traveling. Knowing theyk will have a minimum of two matches and actual placing past the guessing for ranking can only help.

I much prefer folkstyle wrestling, but it needs a few tweaks

[Wrestleknownothing]

6 minutes ago, alex1fly said:

I kind of agree? There seem to be two moves in par terre, leg laces and guts. We would lose all the awesome tilts and pinning combinations. 

Aaron Brooks wishes there were only two moves.

[alex1fly]

2 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Aaron Brooks wishes there were only two moves.

I mean that on the whole most par terre points seem to come from those two moves because they can be set up quick and chained together. I don’t see many arm bar tilts, halfs, etc in FS. Of course it doesn’t help that the top guy has only a few seconds to set something up, plus there’s no reset in FS like there is in folk. 
 

Just observing. 

Edited August 11 by alex1fly

[Wrestleknownothing]

11 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Got it, mostly agree although I guess depends on your definition of “harmed.”  Maybe not a significant number but I think we definitely lose some fans particularly in the short term if college switched to freestyle.

We probably lose some youth wrestlers too assuming we make the switch at all levels.

The biggest challenge IMO would be coaches.  I’d guess something like 90% of youth/high school coaches have little if any freestyle experience.

Coaching challenges is an excellent point. Any transition would be painful. It would need to be decided the gain outweighed the pain.

As for youth wrestlers, I think they would enjoy it. Is there anything worse than spending your first X number of practices trying to figure out how to get off bottom?

I thunk the fans you lose are in the 50-80+ range who grew up with folk.

[CHROMEBIRD]

Which style is better suited for wrestlers who want to compete in MMA down the road? Intuitively, developing the muscle memory and skill to control & ride your opponent seems more advantageous for MMA than avoiding back exposure or forcing step-outs. I really don't know, but just something to consider.

[Spladle08]

5 minutes ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

Which style is better suited for wrestlers who want to compete in MMA down the road? Intuitively, developing the muscle memory and skill to control & ride your opponent seems more advantageous for MMA than avoiding back exposure or forcing step-outs. I really don't know, but just something to consider.

Run rampant with arguments as you will but, "which style more easily allows our wrestlers to leave wrestling harming our senior level team quality"  isn't a great argument. If the end goal is MMA we should add in submissions. 
If the end goal is Senior level success.....