Olympics: men boxing cs women?

[uncle bernard]

And if it comes out that somehow this was all a conspiracy and she's actually a trans woman who was born a man, then I'll change my mind. I don't think that's likely. She's been competing as a woman her whole career, which goes back a decade. It's not even her first Olympics. She didn't medal in 2020.

[headshuck]

Credit Insufferable Turds

[jross]

41 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

So, again, do you support setting an upper limit for testosterone in women's sports as well as mandatory chromosome testing? 

And not just women who look "manish." Every single woman must be confirmed as a woman. What the doctor ID'd you as when you were born is not good enough.

What do you say?

Totally fine to require sex and drug testing for World and Olympic events - both for men and women.

[jross]

Normal ranges of testosterone as less than 3.1 nanomoles per liter for women and more than 10 nanomoles per liter for men.  Levels over 5 nanomoles per liter is excessive for women in boxing.

[Caveira]

4 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

You don't think women should be able to compete against women if they have too much testosterone?

 

When do we start DQing basketball players for being too tall? These women were born women and have lived their whole lives as women. It's not even legal to be trans in Algeria.

She's been beaten a ton by the way. She's not an unstoppable force.

 

 

Many / every article calls them trans gender.  That their tests are xy chromosome.   
 

do you support this dude fighting in the ufc?   Let’s make it less ambiguous.   Should this dude be able to fight women in the ufc?

 

[1032004]

4 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

Yes, 100%. It came from the Russian head of IBA - who got stripped of their governance for extensive corruption - after....*checks notes*....she beat a Russian boxer at the world championships. The IBA has never produced those results.

@jross

Dang apparently USA boxing didn’t send any athletes to 2023 worlds because of the IBA?  Definitely sounds like the integrity of the organization that DQ’d her is in question.

https://www.nbcsports.com/olympics/news/usa-boxing-world-championships-iba
 

https://www.nbcsports.com/olympics/news/usa-boxing-iba

[WrestlingRasta]

IBA is one of the most corrupt sporting orgs on the planet. 

[Le duke]

Don't you have to provide a birth certificate when you compete in the Olympics...or maybe register with the national team or something??   I seem to remember when I was little and would go to wrestling tournaments, you needed a USA wrestling card and had to produce a birth certificate to get one...or maybe it was for the bigger age group tournaments that I needed to do that...just remember needing to produce that for my age verification.

They do.

These women all have “F” on their passports.


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[Le duke]

Guys, if you haven’t already, look into the story of Caster Semenya.

2x Olympic champ. DSD/Intersex. Has external female genitalia and internal male reproductive organs. She’s had a bunch of cases before CAS.

Long story short, testosterone offers a significant competitive advantage at the pointy end of the sport. World Athletics has effectively banned her, and all intersex competitors, from competition.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya


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[Le duke]

I’ll recommend a podcast for anyone interested in learning about human physiology and performance.

The Real Science of Sport, by Dr. Ross Tucker and Mike Finch. Both South African; Dr. Tucker is a scientist whose main focus is concussions and Mr. Finch is a sports journalist. They have guests on a lot of topics. They’ve discussed Caster Semenya a bunch of times in reaction to current events, such as CAS decisions about cases World Athletics or Semenya have brought before the court. They also talk about various impressive performances, doping and sports safety.


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[Wrestleknownothing]

So many horrifically bad takes from @jross in this thread. You have zero basis to claim either of these boxers is XY, yet you insist you do know this. I am not sure what has tipped you to irrational, but that is what you are being by insisting you know something you can not possibly know.

As for the IBA, in addition to the head of the organization being Russian, and the organization being funded by the Russia state owned energy company Gazprom, the decision to suspend was taken by the Secretary General and CEO and was only ratified by the board a day later.  And the suspension only came at the end of the tournament prior to their respective medal round matches.

[jross]

And yet you know?  

Puuuuhlease.

I don’t know the truth any more than you about these two or some IBA conspiracy.

The IBA was atrocious with how they handled it mid competition.

Still.

The boxer looks like a male.  She hits with the power of a male.  The boxer has no-contests on her record due to test results.  The evidence implies there is truth to the test results.  

If i’m misled on these two boxers because the IBA lied, that is on the IBA.

100% females with xy and high testosterone should not box biological females.

[jross]

It does not matter if the boxer is or is not transgender, sex pref, passport gender, what is legal in the country, etc.  All of that is a distraction that these females likely do have the xy chromosome.

The rationality is clear.  One boxer did not challenge the IBA action.  One did and then dropped.  One imagines this is a very big deal to these boxers.  Boxing is their identity.  

If this was fake news, these boxers would reveal their test results to prove the case immediately after they were disqualified.  And they would do so now asap.

They did not and will not.  And this will be the tell.

[VakAttack]

1 hour ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

So many horrifically bad takes from @jross in this thread. You have zero basis to claim either of these boxers is XY, yet you insist you do know this. I am not sure what has tipped you to irrational, but that is what you are being by insisting you know something you can not possibly know.

As for the IBA, in addition to the head of the organization being Russian, and the organization being funded by the Russia state owned energy company Gazprom, the decision to suspend was taken by the Secretary General and CEO and was only ratified by the board a day later.  And the suspension only came at the end of the tournament prior to their respective medal round matches.

At least we're now to the point where some people are tacitly acknowledging they understand that gender isn't as easily defined as they used to pretend it was.

[Le duke]

At least we're now to the point where some people are tacitly acknowledging they understand that gender isn't as easily defined as they used to pretend it was.

Yes, it’s kind of funny how the “there are only two genders” crowd are being forced to admit that’s not quite true.

They are also learning the difference between gender and sex, too, I’d hope.


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[Offthemat]

35 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

At least we're now to the point where some people are tacitly acknowledging they understand that gender isn't as easily defined as they used to pretend it was.

 

8 minutes ago, Le duke said:

Yes, it’s kind of funny how the “there are only two genders” crowd are being forced to admit that’s not quite true.

They are also learning the difference between gender and sex, too, I’d hope.


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You can say you’re whatever you want, but when you buy shoes you’re going to have to make a decision.  Men’s sizes, or women’s. 

[WrestlingRasta]

It’s all a matter of what you want to believe.  
 

You can believe their birth certificates, and passport (which in the one case, both generating in a country where the type of thing people are claiming is highly illeagal, a country where FAFO is steep in history); you can believe the process and testing of every single other competition entered, except the one as stated above, in which the report that DQ’s them wouldn’t be released. An organization so corrupt, to the point they are not allowed to run their own tournament these two weeks.

Or, you can believe things people are typing on their keyboard without anywhere near the level of documented information that is listed above. 
 

Someone said there is nothing wrong with concern and raising question.  I completely, 100% agree.  People should question a lot more rather than just follow.  There is also a difference between questioning, and flat denying every answer. 

[Bigbrog]

So what I can gather from the interwebs, so obviously not 100% for certain, is that the person in question does in fact have XY chromosomes; however, was born with female bits down there.  Seems like an extremely rare genetic disorder.  Which makes this one pretty complicated.  And in the case of female boxing the genetic disorder may in fact help.  

By the way, people throwing out the "see...there are more than two gender" B.S., this extremely rare genetic defect does not prove there are more than two genders...it proves there can be genetic defects.

[Wrestleknownothing]

51 minutes ago, Bigbrog said:

So what I can gather from the interwebs, so obviously not 100% for certain, is that the person in question does in fact have XY chromosomes; however, was born with female bits down there.  Seems like an extremely rare genetic disorder.  Which makes this one pretty complicated.  And in the case of female boxing the genetic disorder may in fact help.  

By the way, people throwing out the "see...there are more than two gender" B.S., this extremely rare genetic defect does not prove there are more than two genders...it proves there can be genetic defects.

Which person? There are two involved.

I rely heavily on The Athletic and ESPN for these types of stories as they adhere to journalistic standards of research and verification. They do not make any claim about chromosomes. And neither does the IBA, who kicked this whole thing off. What interweb sources are you relying on?

[jross]

55 minutes ago, Bigbrog said:

So what I can gather from the interwebs, so obviously not 100% for certain, is that the person in question does in fact have XY chromosomes; however, was born with female bits down there.  Seems like an extremely rare genetic disorder.  Which makes this one pretty complicated.  And in the case of female boxing the genetic disorder may in fact help.  

By the way, people throwing out the "see...there are more than two gender" B.S., this extremely rare genetic defect does not prove there are more than two genders...it proves there can be genetic defects.

100% agree.

Having the (common) opinion that there are two genders and otherwise abnormal defects is a rational opinion.

Whether to call the condition a defect or not is based on social considerations rather than science.

Men that grew up around women (sisters, mothers, girlfriends) don't need a study to know how much stronger men are than females on average.  The data indicates the average man can bench 185lb and the average woman 80lbs.  The data indicates that the average male punch is 164% more forceful than than average female.  This is is not a surprise.

This Algerian boxer appears to have raw and poor technique... an observer understands this is why she lost often early in her career and why she still loses on occasion.  

[jross]

20 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

And neither does the IBA, who kicked this whole thing off. What interweb sources are you relying on?

https://www.iba.sport/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/20240303-IBA-Technical-Competition-Rules-v7-clean.pdf

Quote

“Women/Female/Girl” means an individual with chromosome XX. For this purpose, the Boxers can be submitted to a random and/or targeted gender test to confirm the above, which will serve for the gender eligibility criteria for the IBA Competitions. IBA Technical Competition Rules

 

https://tass.ru/sport/17370249

Quote

 

MOSCOW, March 25. /TASS/. The International Boxing Association (IBA) leadership has excluded athletes who tried to pass themselves off as women from the list of participants in the Women's World Championship in India. This was announced to TASS on Saturday by the organization's president Umar Kremlev.

The Women's World Championships are taking place in New Delhi from 15 to 26 March.

"Based on the results of DNA tests, we identified a number of athletes who tried to deceive their colleagues and pretended to be women. Based on the results of the tests, it was proven that they have XY chromosomes. Such athletes were excluded from the competition," IBA president Umar Kremlev said. 

 

[WrestlingRasta]

So we can at least put to bed that she is trans or male, even with the completely unsubstantiated claim of an XY chromosome.  Which leaves the question is her genetic makeup an unfair advantage.  
 

Mike Tyson came on the scene with genetics like no one had ever seen before. The kind of power that can do serious serious damage with one punch.  But I never heard any recommendations for him not being allowed to fight because his genetics and power are an advantage. 
 

So are we not going to put a cap on power for naturally born males, but we are on naturally born females? 
 

It also needs to be noted, that since so much weight is being given to the Russian Head of IBA saying she had an XY chromosome, using a test that only they use, and without releasing the results….that the DQ happened after her first two rounds, not prior to the tournament, in which she beat a Russian and then an Uzbek…

Edited August 2 by WrestlingRasta

[Wrestleknownothing]

31 minutes ago, jross said:

https://www.iba.sport/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/20240303-IBA-Technical-Competition-Rules-v7-clean.pdf

 

https://tass.ru/sport/17370249

While the Russian head of the Russian state-supported IBA made that statement to the Russian state news agency back in March, notably IBA has now walked that claim back. Instead they say what the test was not, and do not confirm what the test was or the specific results. The decision to suspend the boxers was made after the semi-finals of the tournament. When was the test administered? A genetic test is not an overnight process.

[WrestlingRasta]

30 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

While the Russian head of the Russian state-supported IBA made that statement to the Russian state news agency back in March, notably IBA has now walked that claim back. Instead they say what the test was not, and do not confirm what the test was or the specific results. The decision to suspend the boxers was made after the semi-finals of the tournament. When was the test administered? A genetic test is not an overnight process.

According to the brackets it was before the semi final (unless the bout was contested and later overturned with the opponent moving to the final), but on the bracket it shows defeating a Russian, an Uzbek, then loss by DQ in the semi. 

[Wrestleknownothing]

14 minutes ago, WrestlingRasta said:

According to the brackets it was before the semi final (unless the bout was contested and later overturned with the opponent moving to the final), but on the bracket it shows defeating a Russian, an Uzbek, then loss by DQ in the semi. 

According to The Athletic Khelif's DQ occurred after she had won the semi match and was in the final. Lin's DQ occurred after she had lost the semi match and had clinched a bronze.