If Yazdani wins, where does he stack up with Taylor...

[Hammerlock3]

After his last world title, Taylor said something that I didn't like him for saying which was nonetheless interesting, essentially that if it wasn't for him, Yazdani would be up there with the greatest freestyle wrestlers ever (you could argue that without Taylor he's an 8 timer headed to paris), therefore he is the greatest wrestler ever. Well that narrative doesn't really hold up with his failure to qualify.

If Yazdani leaves the olympics as a 5 time champ and 10 time medalist, does that put him above Taylor whose got 4 golds and one silver? It largely comes down to how much weight you put on head to head wins vs credentials...also something that surprised me is that Taylor is 4 years older than chariti.

[Pa in Taiwan]

If Yazdani wins, he will continue wrestling. He was born in 1994; he turns 30 in December. I would imagine an Olympic gold would motivate him to win a few more World Championships, which would give him a greater amount of medals than Taylor. That said, Taylor still has the head to head wins. I think Taylor just matched up well against Yazdani. I guess we'll see if Brooks matches up well with Hassan, who looked pretty good in his tech of Trent Hidlay earlier this year. Hassan appears to be recovered from whatever surgery he had. Brooks will have to wrestle a very high intensity match and try to gas Yazdani. When Hassan gets low and puts on the forward pressure, he might be the strongest wrestler I've ever seen. 

[Takuto_Otoguro]

In that scenario Yaz would have a greater career,  but be the inferior wrestler as far as abilities on the actual mat. 

If he wins in Paris Yaz would be a 2 time olympic champ, 3 time olympic medalist and have senior world medals at weights ranging from 70kg to 86kg.

But you can't spend the prime of your career losing to the same guy and be considered better than him IMO.  Taylor owned Yaz from 2017 - 2023.  Maybe if Taylor was losing to other guys after beating Yazdani it could be explained away as a match up issue but that was not the case.

 

So yeah, i'd say Yaz was greater, but Taylor was the better wrestler.

If he doesn't win in Paris I think it could be argued Taylor also had the better career. He dominated a weight class and was clearly the number 1 guy in it for a few years. Something Yaz has never done.

[Pa in Taiwan]

2 minutes ago, Takuto_Otoguro said:

Taylor owned Yaz from 2017 - 2023. 

Actually, although I don't disagree with you, you should keep in mind that Yazdani beat Taylor in Worlds in 2021. 

[Takuto_Otoguro]

3 hours ago, Pa in Taiwan said:

Actually, although I don't disagree with you, you should keep in mind that Yazdani beat Taylor in Worlds in 2021. 

I know, but it was a weird tournament. They had a worlds 2 months after the olympics. The result was never replicated by Yaz. I don't put much stock into that win personally even though it was a cool moment. 

[Hammerlock3]

2 hours ago, Takuto_Otoguro said:

I know, but it was a weird tournament. They had a worlds 2 months after the olympics. The result was never replicated by Yaz. I don't put much stock into that win personally even though it was a cool moment. 

thats a little generous to Taylor I tihnk, I'd just stuck with the 5-1 and 2 pins.

I don't disagree with your perspective, but at a certain point the creds have to take over the head to head. If Yazdani wins out through 2028 (we're down the rabbit hole), and is a 9 time champ with 3 olmpics, taylor becomes a trivia question. That said I agree its not that case with one more title.

Remember the Nebaska guy who used to kick Rosholts butt? pinned him even. And never found him at nationals? That comparison doesn't quite hold because taylor and yazdani aren't getting beat by randos...

[Hammerlock3]

6 hours ago, Pa in Taiwan said:

Brooks will have to wrestle a very high intensity match and try to gas Yazdani. When Hassan gets low and puts on the forward pressure, he might be the strongest wrestler I've ever seen. 

Compared to Hidlay Brooks is an insanely dynamic wrestler. I don't think anyone was surprised hidlay got teched, he's essentially just a worse version of yazdani.

I'm gonna be fascinated to see if Brook gets pushed around. His stance with his legs out like tent poles and his hips like a kilometer back, might be able to slow things down enough for him to try and make yazdani tired. If he can't hold his ground he's gonna have to shoot to stay in the match, logan stieber style, in which case he's gonna have to avoid getting stuck underneath to avoid the time suck. If he can't hold his ground, and has to compensate by spending 90 seconds in a front headlock, Yazdani ain't gonna get tired.

[nhs67]

5 minutes ago, Hammerlock3 said:

Compared to Hidlay Brooks is an insanely dynamic wrestler. I don't think anyone was surprised hidlay got teched, he's essentially just a worse version of yazdani.

I'm gonna be fascinated to see if Brook gets pushed around. His stance with his legs out like tent poles and his hips like a kilometer back, might be able to slow things down enough for him to try and make yazdani tired. If he can't hold his ground he's gonna have to shoot to stay in the match, logan stieber style, in which case he's gonna have to avoid getting stuck underneath to avoid the time suck. If he can't hold his ground, and has to compensate by spending 90 seconds in a front headlock, Yazdani ain't gonna get tired.

This isn't true.

There were people on here calling me batshit for saying that Yazdani - Hidlay wasn't a match.

[Hammerlock3]

3 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

This isn't true.

There were people on here calling me batshit for saying that Yazdani - Hidlay wasn't a match.

well, they're not smart like us then.

[Jim L]

30 minutes ago, Hammerlock3 said:

...

Remember the Nebaska guy who used to kick Rosholts butt? pinned him even. And never found him at nationals? That comparison doesn't quite hold because taylor and yazdani aren't getting beat by randos...

Askren / Pendleton might be the better comparison. Still not perfect because peak Taylor beat peak Yaz, while Pendleton never faced Askren at his peak, as he got much better after his sophomore year.

[Hammerlock3]

Just now, Jim L said:

Askren / Pendleton might be the better comparison. Still not perfect because peak Taylor beat peak Yaz, while Pendleton never faced Askren at his peak, as he got much better after his sophomore year.

yeah thats a much better comparison. I think askren was a better folk wrestler than pendleton despite probably having a similar record against him to taylor/yazdani.

[PNWfan]

1 hour ago, Hammerlock3 said:

Compared to Hidlay Brooks is an insanely dynamic wrestler. I don't think anyone was surprised hidlay got teched, he's essentially just a worse version of yazdani.

I'm gonna be fascinated to see if Brook gets pushed around. His stance with his legs out like tent poles and his hips like a kilometer back, might be able to slow things down enough for him to try and make yazdani tired. If he can't hold his ground he's gonna have to shoot to stay in the match, logan stieber style, in which case he's gonna have to avoid getting stuck underneath to avoid the time suck. If he can't hold his ground, and has to compensate by spending 90 seconds in a front headlock, Yazdani ain't gonna get tired.

I'll be surprised if Brooks falls victim to getting controlled by Yazdani's underhooks. His baseline defense is extremely high level and Yaz will need to have in the back of his mind that if he is too reckless with his charging/underhooks, Brooks can counter him and change the entire match. As you said, Brooks will need to be calculated with his shots, cannot get stuck in that front headlock position where Yazdani is able to conserve his energy while also being a threat to score. This is one of the most highly anticipated matches of the Olympics and I cannot wait to see how it unfolds.

[Hammerlock3]

45 minutes ago, PNWfan said:

I'll be surprised if Brooks falls victim to getting controlled by Yazdani's underhooks. His baseline defense is extremely high level and Yaz will need to have in the back of his mind that if he is too reckless with his charging/underhooks, Brooks can counter him and change the entire match. As you said, Brooks will need to be calculated with his shots, cannot get stuck in that front headlock position where Yazdani is able to conserve his energy while also being a threat to score. This is one of the most highly anticipated matches of the Olympics and I cannot wait to see how it unfolds.

the real confound for me with brooks is that I just didn't at all anticipate how well he'd handle taylor, makes me think taylor was hurt or more messed up than her let on after getting dropped on his head in the first match.

I disagree that Yazdani is going to have worry about being countered more than respecting the attacks brooks is gonna initiate himself. His stance makes him really really hard to get to, and he can attack from it because he is really good at backstepping into everything, but its hard to make that work if you aren't pulling at the same time, which he probably wouldn't be Yazdani was initiating. hope that makes sense.

[Wrestleknownothing]

1 hour ago, Hammerlock3 said:

the real confound for me with brooks is that I just didn't at all anticipate how well he'd handle taylor, makes me think taylor was hurt or more messed up than her let on after getting dropped on his head in the first match.

I disagree that Yazdani is going to have worry about being countered more than respecting the attacks brooks is gonna initiate himself. His stance makes him really really hard to get to, and he can attack from it because he is really good at backstepping into everything, but its hard to make that work if you aren't pulling at the same time, which he probably wouldn't be Yazdani was initiating. hope that makes sense.

Something Taylor said in one of his post-trials interviews made me feel like he had a mild case of HEW. He referred to his motivation in training, I believe. I will see if I can find it. It felt like the OSU job came along at the perfect time if that is the case. Of course, there are 1,000,000+ reasons per year why any time would be the perfect time to take that job.

[Hammerlock3]

13 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Something Taylor said in one of his post-trials interviews made me feel like he had a mild case of HEW. He referred to his motivation in training, I believe. I will see if I can find it. It felt like the OSU job came along at the perfect time if that is the case. Of course, there are 1,000,000+ reasons per year why any time would be the perfect time to take that job.

It would be hard not to have come down with HEW, taylor didn't start winning right out of college or before like burroughs or smith, it took him 5 years to make a team. If there aren't financial incentives, and if this wasn't a shortened cycle (2021-2024) its no surprise if he retires. Also makes the 4 year age difference between him and yaz big. That said....motivation is a talent too.

[billyhoyle]

12 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Something Taylor said in one of his post-trials interviews made me feel like he had a mild case of HEW. He referred to his motivation in training, I believe. I will see if I can find it. It felt like the OSU job came along at the perfect time if that is the case. Of course, there are 1,000,000+ reasons per year why any time would be the perfect time to take that job.

It makes no sense that he would win world's the year before the Olympics and then all of a sudden lose motivation when the second Olympic gold would place him as one of the greatest American wrestlers ever.  I just think Brooks surpassed him. 

[Pa in Taiwan]

21 hours ago, Hammerlock3 said:

Compared to Hidlay Brooks is an insanely dynamic wrestler. I don't think anyone was surprised hidlay got teched, he's essentially just a worse version of yazdani.

I think perhaps you misunderstood me. I wasn't saying that Yazdani was the strongest wrestler when he digs in and gets low because of his tech of Hidlay. I have been watching Yazdani for a long time, and he has been pushing people around the mat for ALL of that time. DT got the better of him for sure, but even in the first match in which DT pinned a gassed Yazdani, we should remember that Hassan bulled Taylor around the mat and almost got him disqualified for backing out. Go back to Yazdani eight years or so ago at 74kg when he faced Dieringer, who was NOT a small 74kg wrestler. He absolutely bulled Dieringer around the mat in a 10-0 tech. Even Bader and Piles were commenting that they had never seen anyone physically handle Dieringer like that. He gets really low and has tremendous forward pressure. In more recent years, he has effectively changed that forward pressure into insane snaps. I don't think that Yazdani will adopt a strategy of showing off his pushing strength against Brooks early, as he will try to be smart and conserve energy. I hope we see that match at the Olympics. Nothing is carved in stone, especially with Brooks having little or no experience with senior men's wrestlers at 86kg. 

 

 

 

[Hammerlock3]

8 hours ago, Pa in Taiwan said:

I think perhaps you misunderstood me. I wasn't saying that Yazdani was the strongest wrestler when he digs in and gets low because of his tech of Hidlay. I have been watching Yazdani for a long time, and he has been pushing people around the mat for ALL of that time. DT got the better of him for sure, but even in the first match in which DT pinned a gassed Yazdani, we should remember that Hassan bulled Taylor around the mat and almost got him disqualified for backing out. Go back to Yazdani eight years or so ago at 74kg when he faced Dieringer, who was NOT a small 74kg wrestler. He absolutely bulled Dieringer around the mat in a 10-0 tech. Even Bader and Piles were commenting that they had never seen anyone physically handle Dieringer like that. He gets really low and has tremendous forward pressure. In more recent years, he has effectively changed that forward pressure into insane snaps. I don't think that Yazdani will adopt a strategy of showing off his pushing strength against Brooks early, as he will try to be smart and conserve energy. I hope we see that match at the Olympics. Nothing is carved in stone, especially with Brooks having little or no experience with senior men's wrestlers at 86kg. 

 

 

 

well i don't think I implied that your case was based on one match but ok.

Interesting thought, the second time they wrestled yazdani went out hard against taylor, because he thought he could scramble with him, and punched himself out in scrambles which made him break mentally...but I don't think brooks is nearly the scrambler taylor is. Yaz might take him in those positions.

I guess thats why its a good match, there are a lot of different ways it could go.

[fishbane]

On 7/22/2024 at 5:16 AM, Takuto_Otoguro said:

you can't spend the prime of your career losing to the same guy and be considered better than him IMO.  Taylor owned Yaz from 2017 - 2023.  Maybe if Taylor was losing to other guys after beating Yazdani it could be explained away as a match up issue but that was not the case.

So yeah, i'd say Yaz was greater, but Taylor was the better wrestler.

I dunno.  Was 2017-2023 the prime of Yazdanis career?  Or was it the prime of Taylor's career?  If it was the prime of Yazdani's career then Taylor spent the majority of his prime (2013-2019) losing to a variety of guys and only won a single world title (2018).  I think 16 prime freestyle losses for Taylor vs only 5 for Yazdani.  Yazdani won two world titles during his prime (2017 and 2019).

If it was the prime of Taylor's career then isn't it too early to pick the better wrestler?  Yazdani could be approaching the peak of his prime now.  Yazdani's prime would be 2021-2027. 

On 7/22/2024 at 12:09 PM, Jim L said:

Askren / Pendleton might be the better comparison. Still not perfect because peak Taylor beat peak Yaz, while Pendleton never faced Askren at his peak, as he got much better after his sophomore year.

When do you consider Askren's peak?  Pendleton beat him in 2005 and earlier.  He also beat him in freestyle at Sunkist Kids in 2009.  I guess if his peak was limited to 2006-2008 that could be true.

[Takuto_Otoguro]

1 hour ago, fishbane said:

I dunno.  Was 2017-2023 the prime of Yazdanis career?  Or was it the prime of Taylor's career?  If it was the prime of Yazdani's career then Taylor spent the majority of his prime (2013-2019) losing to a variety of guys and only won a single world title (2018).  I think 16 prime freestyle losses for Taylor vs only 5 for Yazdani.  Yazdani won two world titles during his prime (2017 and 2019).

If it was the prime of Taylor's career then isn't it too early to pick the better wrestler?  Yazdani could be approaching the peak of his prime now.  Yazdani's prime would be 2021-2027. 

 

I would say 18 worlds onwards was Yazdani's prime. He looked  better in 2018 worlds than he did in 2017 despite getting a worse result. I think he's been performing at a consistent level since.

I don't see any reason to say 2021 was the start of Yazdani's prime. What made him better in 2021 than 2019? Anyway he's lost to Taylor 3 times since 2021. His worst losses to Taylor have been since 2021.

Taylor hit his prime later than is usual. You can't seriously say 2014 was prime Taylor just going off age. He jumped a weight and it changed his career. I don't see Yaz making a jump like that since 2021.   I think it's safe to say both guys got multiple opportunities  to wrestle the best version of the other while being the best version of themselves and Taylor clearly came out on top.

 

[fishbane]

1 hour ago, Takuto_Otoguro said:

I would say 18 worlds onwards was Yazdani's prime. He looked  better in 2018 worlds than he did in 2017 despite getting a worse result. I think he's been performing at a consistent level since.

I don't see any reason to say 2021 was the start of Yazdani's prime. What made him better in 2021 than 2019? Anyway he's lost to Taylor 3 times since 2021. His worst losses to Taylor have been since 2021.

Taylor hit his prime later than is usual. You can't seriously say 2014 was prime Taylor just going off age. He jumped a weight and it changed his career. I don't see Yaz making a jump like that since 2021.   I think it's safe to say both guys got multiple opportunities  to wrestle the best version of the other while being the best version of themselves and Taylor clearly came out on top.

 

That's what I was doing - going by age.  If Taylor was at his best in 2022 and 2023, Yazdani potentially still has years to reach a new peak.  When your peak is best in the world and your trough is second best is the world it can be difficult to tell the location of the actual peak.

The other argument in favor of Yazdani over Taylor is that Taylor had a very limited prime and all these head to head matches all happened during Taylor's prime which skewed the head to head record in Taylor's favour.  If Taylor and Yazdani had met each year from 2015-2024 the record could be more even. But when Taylor wasn't good enough to compete with Yazdani he was either not on the team or retired.  If Yazdani had taken a couple matches off Taylor before his hit his prime or after he started to decline it would change the head to head perception significantly.

All in all Taylor was only undisputedly the best in the world three for years 2018, 2022, and 2023.  Returning to the OP topic if Yazdani wins this year then Yazdani was the best in the world 2016, 2017, 2019, and 2024.  Multiple Olympics, multiple weights, and an age level title too.  It might be enough for some.  He'd probably need one more still to pass Taylor in my estimation.  If Yazdani goes on a run of 4-5 more titles it really isn't debatable and he is one of the greatest freestyle wrestlers ever.  All Taylor did was block him from being universally seen as the best ever.

[Jim L]

5 hours ago, fishbane said:

 

When do you consider Askren's peak?  Pendleton beat him in 2005 and earlier.  He also beat him in freestyle at Sunkist Kids in 2009.  I guess if his peak was limited to 2006-2008 that could be true.

Like I said, it is an imperfect comparison. I did not know about the Sunkist match in 2009.

Also Askren was clearly better in Folk than Free and his Jr and Sr year he was one of the best NCAA wrestles ever. 

[fishbane]

13 minutes ago, Jim L said:

Like I said, it is an imperfect comparison. I did not know about the Sunkist match in 2009.

Also Askren was clearly better in Folk than Free and his Jr and Sr year he was one of the best NCAA wrestles ever. 

The Sunkist Kids match was at 84kg which probably favored Pendleton as he was at 84kg for the 2008 trials and Askren was at 74kg arguably with one foot into retirement. Pendleton was close to retirement himself, but did another quad finishing 3rd at the 2012 trials.

https://content.usawmembership.com/articles/20939

[Dark Energy]

The degree of tortured logic to somehow suggest Yazdani could be considered better than Taylor is laughable.

[Hammerlock3]

2 hours ago, Dark Energy said:

The degree of tortured logic to somehow suggest Yazdani could be considered better than Taylor is laughable.

explain that position please