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Are all the Pro-Palestine, anti Israel protests helping or hurting the Democrats?


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I think these protests are supported by the FAR FAR left.   That is a subset of the those that say they are democrats and who usually vote democrat.    But most I's, middle of the road Ds, and Rs, are repulsed by these and do not have their support.    Especially when these feckless protest warriors complain that Columbia is not feeding them.  

The camping is illegal.   The taking over of buildings is illegal.   The destruction of property is illegal.  Yet these law breakers want their vegan meals and non lactose milk.    There are not many in the public that support these snowflakes.   These warriors are all about their cause until they get a little hungry.   They are so weak and they project that.   Supposedly, these are university students, but they are completely stupid and don't understand how to advocate for their cause.   How they got accepted to these schools is undecipherable.  They are idiots, don't know history, and don't want to know history.   They completely reject that Hamas  did anything wrong in raping, burning, and taking hostages.   They  reject that this even happened.  

I believe they have support from a small minority of US citizens.  It will not play well for Ds that support this in Congress etc.  That's my prediction. 

mspart

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3 minutes ago, mspart said:

I think these protests are supported by the FAR FAR left.   That is a subset of the those that say they are democrats and who usually vote democrat.    But most I's, middle of the road Ds, and Rs, are repulsed by these and do not have their support.    Especially when these feckless protest warriors complain that Columbia is not feeding them.  

The camping is illegal.   The taking over of buildings is illegal.   The destruction of property is illegal.  Yet these law breakers want their vegan meals and non lactose milk.    There are not many in the public that support these snowflakes.   These warriors are all about their cause until they get a little hungry.   They are so weak and they project that.   Supposedly, these are university students, but they are completely stupid and don't understand how to advocate for their cause.   How they got accepted to these schools is undecipherable.  They are idiots, don't know history, and don't want to know history.   They completely reject that Hamas  did anything wrong in raping, burning, and taking hostages.   They  reject that this even happened.  

I believe they have support from a small minority of US citizens.  It will not play well for Ds that support this in Congress etc.  That's my prediction. 

mspart

Pretty accurate.  Keep in mind that nearly half the arrested had no connection to the schools.  There is an element of the protesters who are not working for America’s interest.  

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Agreed.  Many of those protesting on campuses are not students.   That is proven.   So who are they.   Pro agitators?  I don't know but they should be prosecuted for being on campus illegally in my opinion.  

You will notice that those encampments that are illegal and were dispersed by police have not grown.   Those that were allowed to stay  have gone much further in taking over buildings and destroying university property.  

You get more of what you tolerate.  

mspart

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2 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

Sorry, I've been slammed the last few days.

The full demand goes beyond that, yes.

1) The demand of the college protests specifically is for divestment. Most of these universities invest money or provide support to Israeli Military Operations or companies that do. Students don't want their tuition dollars invested in things they find evil. This is built on the tradition of the South African divestment movement back in the 80s. One student at the protest I attend has lost over 10 family members, mostly women and children, in the last 6 months. He doesn't want his tuition dollars supporting that.

2) Antizionism is the core of the overall protest movement. There's a lot of slippage in the coverage of what that means and chants that are against Israel's "existence." We certainly don't support the state of Israel's existence as it *currently exists.* That does not refer to the existence of Israeli's as individuals. Every person has the right to live peacefully with equal protection under the law. That is an American value.

There are a range of opinions on what that might look like, from a two state solution where Israel ends the blockade of Gaza and occupation of the West Bank and Palestine receives official statehood to a one state solution where the Palestinian and Israeli populations are integrated under one secular government with equal rights for all "from the river to the sea."

3) I can't speak for everyone in the movement. Every protest movement will have people within it with bad opinions. I will say for certain, if you talk to most of the people involved, they will strongly decry the murder of civilians on 10/7 along with the murder of civilians by both sides before and after. I have not seen a lick of pro-Hamas sentiment in my protest, which involves hundreds of people, yet coverage of us routinely describes that sentiment is present. I can't speak to every protest but the gap between the media coverage of us and what is actually happening is insane. I suspect that applies to most locations too.

As would expect...this all sounds good...in theory...but you painting a picture of what the protesting should be and what the people are saying is NOT what is happening everywhere.  You can blame the media (that you support when it fits your need/rhetoric) but as people have said, setting up encampments is NOT peaceful protest, blocking access to anything is NOT peaceful protest, causing damage is NOT peaceful protest, taking over buildings is NOT peaceful protest, handing out anti-American and ant-Israel material is NOT peaceful protest, etc.  And you saying "most people involved will strongly decry the murder of civilians on 10/7" doesn't make it true...that is NOT what most people are chanting and saying at these "peaceful protests".  I have to believe if you and "most people" at these protests were strongly against the "bad opinions" (nice try trying to downplay someone calling for death to America and Israel), you and your "protesters" wouldn't allow them to chant right next to you, destroy property, take over buildings, etc. 

So keep on with the lies and get back to your tent otherwise you won't get your free kale sandwich.

🙄

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1 hour ago, mspart said:

How they got accepted to these schools is undecipherable.

Ha, I laughed out loud at that one. 
 

Your take is spot on. Which makes it even more confusing to me why Biden doesn’t clearly pick a side. By not doing so this hurts him…in my humble opinion.

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5 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

Sorry, I've been slammed the last few days.

The full demand goes beyond that, yes.

1) The demand of the college protests specifically is for divestment. Most of these universities invest money or provide support to Israeli Military Operations or companies that do. Students don't want their tuition dollars invested in things they find evil. This is built on the tradition of the South African divestment movement back in the 80s. One student at the protest I attend has lost over 10 family members, mostly women and children, in the last 6 months. He doesn't want his tuition dollars supporting that.

2) Antizionism is the core of the overall protest movement. There's a lot of slippage in the coverage of what that means and chants that are against Israel's "existence." We certainly don't support the state of Israel's existence as it *currently exists.* That does not refer to the existence of Israeli's as individuals. Every person has the right to live peacefully with equal protection under the law. That is an American value.

There are a range of opinions on what that might look like, from a two state solution where Israel ends the blockade of Gaza and occupation of the West Bank and Palestine receives official statehood to a one state solution where the Palestinian and Israeli populations are integrated under one secular government with equal rights for all "from the river to the sea."

3) I can't speak for everyone in the movement. Every protest movement will have people within it with bad opinions. I will say for certain, if you talk to most of the people involved, they will strongly decry the murder of civilians on 10/7 along with the murder of civilians by both sides before and after. I have not seen a lick of pro-Hamas sentiment in my protest, which involves hundreds of people, yet coverage of us routinely describes that sentiment is present. I can't speak to every protest but the gap between the media coverage of us and what is actually happening is insane. I suspect that applies to most locations too.

Thanks for this @uncle bernard.  On #2 - can you clarify?  Anti Zionism is the core but a two state solution is ok?

Also, ‘from the river to the sea’ is clearly about the state of Israel not existing.  It seems you are trying to push a different meaning.  Are you?

For #3 - fair answer.  It does seem that there is evidence of a fair number of protestors supporting Hamas.  Glad to hear you feel that the large large majority do not.  

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22 minutes ago, Dark Energy said:

Thanks for this @uncle bernard.  On #2 - can you clarify?  Anti Zionism is the core but a two state solution is ok?

Also, ‘from the river to the sea’ is clearly about the state of Israel not existing.  It seems you are trying to push a different meaning.  Are you?

For #3 - fair answer.  It does seem that there is evidence of a fair number of protestors supporting Hamas.  Glad to hear you feel that the large large majority do not.  

2) There a range of opinions within antizionism. I think the best way to look at it is that it *is* against Israel *as it currently exists,* but a different version of Israel, one that respects the sovereignty of a neighbor Palestinian state would be acceptable.

Same thing apples to "from the river to the sea." "Palestine will be free" could come in a variety of forms, from two sovereign states to one state with a different government. In this second case, both Israel and Palestine would no longer exist in their current form. All the people would still be there living under one set of laws. I imagine many of Hamas' members imagine a theocratic state where they reconstruct Israel in muslim form. This would be a disaster, but I feel pretty confident that there is no scenario where this would ever happen.

3) My local protest has a mini library, art station, volleyball and hula-hooping. Not very Hamas-ian to say the least lol. The targeting of civilians is unacceptable in all forms by all parties. As an occupied people, Hamas has the right to strike Israeli military targets. That's war. Civilians are off limits and the organizers of 10/7 should be held accountable for those crimes.

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6 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

3) My local protest has a mini library, art station, volleyball and hula-hooping. Not very Hamas-ian to say the least lol. The targeting of civilians is unacceptable in all forms by all parties. As an occupied people, Hamas has the right to strike Israeli military targets. That's war. Civilians are off limits and the organizers of 10/7 should be held accountable for those crimes.

One of your better posts, to be sure. It would be difficult to argue against any of what I've quoted above. Well done.

Except the part in bold.

"As an occupied people" - I have no personal experience in that region, but I have read others claiming that Hamas is a foreign governing body that neither represents Gazans nor acts in their best interest. After taking power, they ended elections - no way to vote them out. I'm no expert, but if this is true, it does appear that Hamas is occupying Gaza and controlling Gazans without their consent.

Or maybe I've got it all wrong and the majority of Gazans support Hamas. I do not know. From my standpoint, this is a question that really needs to be answered to make any sense out of this particular mess. 

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21 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

they’ve offered. israel said no. this isn’t about hostages. 

 

Hamas is saying that if Israel surrenders, they will release the dead and pregnant hostages and resume planning their next October 7th style attack.  Israelis aren’t stupid.  

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44 minutes ago, Offthemat said:

Hamas is saying that if Israel surrenders, they will release the dead and pregnant hostages and resume planning their next October 7th style attack.  Israelis aren’t stupid.  

just like the giant command centers under the hospitals and schools. oh wait…..

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26 minutes ago, BuckyBadger said:

from your own article:

But it fell far short of proving that Hamas used the hospital as a primary command and control node for its operations, an assertion both Israel and the US had repeatedly made before the IDF reached the hospital. Israel went as far as to publish a 3D graphic illustration of a Hamas command hub extending underground directly from the hospital buildings. Neither Israel nor the US have published evidence that fully matches up with the claims.”

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2 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

from your own article:

But it fell far short of proving that Hamas used the hospital as a primary command and control node for its operations, an assertion both Israel and the US had repeatedly made before the IDF reached the hospital. Israel went as far as to publish a 3D graphic illustration of a Hamas command hub extending underground directly from the hospital buildings. Neither Israel nor the US have published evidence that fully matches up with the claims.”

You can argue over details of whether this qualifies as a command center, but that misses the point. There is plenty of evidence of weapons stored in hospitals/schools, and fighters operating there.

Why you want to find an excuse for that is beyond me.

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2 hours ago, BuckyBadger said:

You can argue over details of whether this qualifies as a command center, but that misses the point. There is plenty of evidence of weapons stored in hospitals/schools, and fighters operating there.

Why you want to find an excuse for that is beyond me.

I think you're missing the point of the response which is that Israel will always come up some sort of excuse using extremely exaggerated claims not backed by reality to do what they want to do. They wanted to bomb the hospitals, so they claimed there was an elaborate command center in each one, something that was very obviously not true.

Now @Offthemat is claiming they don't care about getting hostages released because they're either dead or pregnant (interesting disregard for pregnant women here coming from someone I assume is "pro-life"). There is zero evidence for this being the case as of now. 

The fact of the matter is that Hamas has offered the remaining hostages in exchange for withdrawal from Gaza. Israel said no because it doesn't care about the hostages. We already knew this. If Israel's top concern was the hostages, it wouldn't have spent the last 6 months bombing the area they were being held. They want to destroy Gaza. That's what they're going to do. 10/7 was the greatest gift the hardliners could have ever received. They would have never been able to accomplish so many of their goals without it.

Here's a good question: Why isn't Israel letting independent investigators and journalists into the country to verify their claims? If they were true, showing the world would only solidify Israel's support. 

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Hamas has enmeshed itself with the Palestinian people and has built 300 miles of tunnels under the city over the last 15 years, including under Hospitals, kindergartens  and a Mosque.  They don't use the tunnels to protect civilians, they use it to protect themselves.  

Per Colemon Hughes  "Yes there is  the  tragedy and suffering of the Palestinian people but it's what what creates that is the way Hamas fights and either we can say one of two things we can either say well Israel just  doesn't have a clean shot and so they have to let Hamas get away with it because it's too much to bear but then we are essentially creating a situation where terrorists have found the perfect solution which is that you can cross the border go house to house slaughtering your enemies and then hide behind your own people and they can do nothing about it. it's a perfect strategy can we live in a world where we allow that to be an acceptable strategy.". 

Hamas built tunnels, Israel has built bomb shelters and built some of the best defense systems in the modern world to protect their people.    They could literally erase Hamas and Palestine, if Hamas was similarly equipped they would choose to wipe Israel from the earth.   

 

 

 

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