One principle that stands above all others: personal accountability

[jross]

1 minute ago, Bigbrog said:

You do realize that the data shows, without doubt, that a person's chance of getting to a point where their addiction isn't controlling their life is much higher when THEY want to help themselves...aka, self accountability.  In treatment what do you think they preach...yep...self accountability!  Yes, I know some surround the treatment around God, but ultimately it still is all about self accountability.  Also, one isn't going to not be homeless if they don't want to help themselves.  

My wife didn't stop smoking when I asked and provided reasons.

My wife didn't ask my opinion before stopping cold turkey when pregant.

Strange how motivation works /s.

[ThreePointTakedown]

29 minutes ago, Bigbrog said:

So it sounds like you skirt the term "accountability" by falling back on the adage of "nuance".   You know exactly what it means and what it references...yet you want to bog it down with all these "what if's" and one-off circumstances...I ask you why do you want to do that??  It literally would be impossible to have a conversation with someone if all you talked about where the what if's and one off's. 

Please don't try to tell me what I know. 

Life is all what-if's. Rarely does a general principle of right and wrong work for each and every situation in someone's life. 

Having a conversation about right/wrong or good/bad is, I agree, impossible to discuss generally. Precisely because situations are way to nuanced for something so broad to apply. 

Sorry that the conversation can't be more satisfying or resolute. It is regrettable but that's the nature of such a broad and sweeping principle. 

[Bigbrog]

4 minutes ago, jross said:

My wife didn't stop smoking when I asked and provided reasons.

My wife didn't ask my opinion before stopping cold turkey when pregant.

Strange how motivation works /s.

My dad didn't stop being a severe alcoholic because his kids and the rest of the family asked him to...many many many times.  He finally quit when he decided HE was going to do it and took the action to do it.

Edited March 27 by Bigbrog

[JimmyBT]

43 minutes ago, jross said:

The people who are personally accountable are the reason people that are handicapped, old, addicted to drugs, etc. have the help that exists today.

This  

[Bigbrog]

2 minutes ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

Please don't try to tell me what I know. 

Life is all what-if's. Rarely does a general principle of right and wrong work for each and every situation in someone's life. 

Having a conversation about right/wrong or good/bad is, I agree, impossible to discuss generally. Precisely because situations are way to nuanced for something so broad to apply. 

Sorry that the conversation can't be more satisfying or resolute. It is regrettable but that's the nature of such a broad and sweeping principle. 

I'll stop when you stop

[ThreePointTakedown]

1 minute ago, Bigbrog said:

My dad didn't stop being a sever alcoholic because his kids and the rest of the family asked him to...many many many times.  He finally quit when he decided HE was going to do it and took the action to do it.

That sounds like a traumatic child hood. 

I'm sorry. 

[ThreePointTakedown]

1 minute ago, Bigbrog said:

I'll stop when you stop

Have I? I try not to. 

Would love to see examples. 

Edited March 27 by ThreePointTakedown

[Bigbrog]

Just now, ThreePointTakedown said:

That sounds like a traumatic child hood. 

I'm sorry. 

Thank you....just glad he did it...he's been sober for 35+ years now

[jross]

19 minutes ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

Is it just the nebulous term that you haven't defined, 'personal accountability'? 

Good grief.  Define personal accounability?

It is the idea of taking ownership of one's actions, decisions, and their outcomes, rather than shifting blame onto external factors. 

Edited March 27 by jross

[ThreePointTakedown]

3 minutes ago, jross said:

Good grief.  Define personal accounability?

It is the idea of taking ownership of one's actions, decisions, and their outcomes, rather than shifting blame onto external factors. 

Great. So realizing you're in a bad place. Is asking for help the same as blaming? 

What situation(s) most concerns you that has to do with people blaming others for their lot in life? 

[JimmyBT]

9 minutes ago, Bigbrog said:

Thank you....just glad he did it...he's been sober for 35+ years now

I don’t know you personally but it seems to me you didn’t use your dad’s problem and traumatic childhood experience as an excuse. Even though you very well could have.  You decided to make the most out of life that you possibly could in spite of some challenges.   Congrats on taking responsibility and overcoming!!!!!!

Edited March 27 by JimmyBT

[red viking]

I also know a person or two that picked themselves up by the bootstraps. That must mean that everybody will, IF WE JUST LOWER MY TAXES!!! 

[JimmyBT]

It’s proven that not everyone WILL.  But most CAN if they want to. 

Edited March 27 by JimmyBT

[Bigbrog]

Just now, JimmyBT said:

I don’t know you personally but it seems to me you didn’t use your dad’s problem and traumatic childhood experience as an excuse. Even though you very well could have.  You decided to still make the most out of life that you possibly could in spite of some challenges.   Congrats on taking responsibility and overcoming!!!!!!

Thanks Jimmy...I definitely do not...and without getting too deep in my personal life, despite my dad being an absent alcoholic dad, I suffered far more trauma from a stepdad that was extremely abusive...only way to not go down the same path was self-accountability and to NOT be like that.  And it drives my behavior/emotions when it comes to domestic violence and child abuse...probably one of the only ways I end up in prison is my reaction to that if it happened to a family member, or close friends or their kids.

[jross]

11 minutes ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

Great. So realizing you're in a bad place. Is asking for help the same as blaming? 

What situation(s) most concerns you that has to do with people blaming others for their lot in life? 

Asking for help is an act of personal responsibility, as you are taking steps to address your situation and improve it.

What concerns me is passing the buck without acknowledging your own agency and responsibility.  It is fine to recognize  tough circumstances...  Okay, 'in spite of X', what are you (sometimes we) going to do about it?  My tolerance is limited for anybody that blames others... promotes a sense of victimhood, powerlessness, and resignation... Fool me once, fool me twice...

[jross]

16 minutes ago, red viking said:

I also know a person or two that picked themselves up by the bootstraps. That must mean that everybody will, IF WE JUST LOWER MY TAXES!!! 

This conversation is not about taxes.

But I hope everyone takes enough personal responsibility to eventually make enough money to want their taxes lowered.

[ThreePointTakedown]

6 minutes ago, jross said:

Asking for help is an act of personal responsibility, as you are taking steps to address your situation and improve it.

What concerns me is passing the buck without acknowledging your own agency and responsibility.  It is fine to recognize  tough circumstances...  Okay, 'in spite of X', what are you (sometimes we) going to do about it?  My tolerance is limited for anybody that blames others... promotes a sense of victimhood, powerlessness, and resignation... Fool me once, fool me twice...

Again, where is this happening? 

Rather than talking in generalities, site an instance where this is happening and why it should be concerning to everyone?

[ThreePointTakedown]

6 minutes ago, jross said:

This conversation is not about taxes.

But I hope everyone takes enough personal responsibility to eventually make enough money to want their taxes lowered.

Not sure capitalism would support that, at least in its current form, but we can dream. 

[JimmyBT]

Communism, Socialism or Marxism surely won’t. 

[ThreePointTakedown]

2 minutes ago, JimmyBT said:

Communism, Socialism or Marxism surely won’t. 

They do, on paper. But those darn human proclivities mess it all up. 

[JimmyBT]

If only people weren’t involved and life was lived on paper. 

Edited March 27 by JimmyBT

[jross]

3 hours ago, jross said:

It is with great enthusiasm and unwavering confidence that I formally nominate David Goggins.

 

[jross]

18 minutes ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

Again, where is this happening? 

Rather than talking in generalities, site an instance where this is happening and why it should be concerning to everyone?

There are many examples from you, a few from RV, DEI examples in this forum... I mentioned a work example in this topic.

 

[ThreePointTakedown]

4 minutes ago, jross said:

There are many examples from you, a few from RV, DEI examples in this forum... I mentioned a work example in this topic.

 

I read the post about the work issue.

Do you know all the details involved with making the adjustments to the product and how it might effect both directions of the chain? 

And does everyone have to listen to your suggestions about everything?  

What steps did you take to address all the issues that could potentially arise from making the change to the product? 

Sorry, probably not questions you anticipated being asked. I understand venting is important. Answer if you want. Otherwise I'll consider the issue covered. 

Comment about the water line scenario, if you take action and 'fix' a pipe that is under the purview of the city/county/state you would, quite possibly, be sited for a crime. If not mess things up more. Not sure how it fits with the 'personal accountability'. 'I will leave that to the experts rather than messing something up way more.' is a level of self realization that is commendable. Then call the city to let them know. 

[WrestlingRasta]

2 hours ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

When you start saying 'right and wrong' it seems as if there is moral code that is implied. Because there are always shades of grey with right things that can make them wrong and vise versa. 

The trope of robbers blaming cops for ending up in jail is just such an example. They feel they are doing good but society says they need to be removed from society for a time. Robin Hood, was celebrated for stealing from people thought to be worth stealing from. Dillinger. 

That's why I like using terms like good or harm. Right or wrong locks you into a position which makes it harder to see the nuance in the situation or your bias to it. 

Disagree