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Something the NCAA championships don't need tonight


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23 minutes ago, dragit said:

Former president showed respect for the sport by attending and viewing all the matches, they in turn showed respect for the office if not for him.  

Former president attended the tournament, that is clear.

Was it a PR move? Was he showing respect for wrestling? Was he boosting morale for a group he thinks will protest for him after he's arrested on Tuesday (according to him)? Was he sincerely interested in following the wrestlers' performance? Did he really pay attention to any of the matches at all?

Meh - nobody really knows.

 

At least some of the wrestlers went for photo-ops with him, that is also clear.

Did they support him? Did they just want to get a photo-op with someone famous? Did someone else encourage them to do it even if they didn't care? Did they want to participate in his election campaign? Did they want a photo before he is arrested and put in jail? 

Meh - nobody really knows.

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15 minutes ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

Former president attended the tournament, that is clear.

Was it a PR move? Was he showing respect for wrestling? Was he boosting morale for a group he thinks will protest for him after he's arrested on Tuesday (according to him)? Was he sincerely interested in following the wrestlers' performance? Did he really pay attention to any of the matches at all?

Meh - nobody really knows.

 

At least some of the wrestlers went for photo-ops with him, that is also clear.

Did they support him? Did they just want to get a photo-op with someone famous? Did someone else encourage them to do it even if they didn't care? Did they want to participate in his election campaign? Did they want a photo before he is arrested and put in jail? 

Meh - nobody really knows.

I'm fairly certain that he did not enjoy seeing other people winning or being honored. I'm somewhat certain he thought he was going to a WWE event and that he'd be brought into the ring and honored for making their HoF. I'm 100% certain that at some point he told the people around him that if he had wrestled he'd have won all ten weights every year and would have been his own coach. I also suspect that he claimed that Trump University has more titles than PSU does in the last decade.

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Just now, GreatWhiteNorth said:

Former president attended the tournament, that is clear.

Was it a PR move? Was he showing respect for wrestling? Was he boosting morale for a group he thinks will protest for him after he's arrested on Tuesday (according to him)? Was he sincerely interested in following the wrestlers' performance? Did he really pay attention to any of the matches at all?

Meh - nobody really knows.

 

At least some of the wrestlers went for photo-ops with him, that is also clear.

Did they support him? Did they just want to get a photo-op with someone famous? Did someone else encourage them to do it even if they didn't care? Did they want to participate in his election campaign? Did they want a photo before he is arrested and put in jail? 

Meh - nobody really knows.

It should be noted that he was going to go in 2020 before covid canceled the tournament last minute and without any indictment looming.

Nobody really knows why anyone does anything.

Are the choices of politicians influenced by political considerations?  Yes, that we do know, but we don't withhold respect for the office (or in the case of POTUS the former office) based on that inference, or not being able to ascertain the full calculus of motives.

And I haven't heard anyone report that he comported himself inappropriately or with the unfortunate frequent bluster that bothers so many and is the cause of many of his problems; in fact, it sounds like he said nothing over any sort of microphone, politlely acknowledged an intro over the PA, interacted with people who interacted with him, and watched ten terrific wrestling matches.  

Under these circumstances, I don't find disappointment with any winners shaking hands with the former president on their special night.  

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1 minute ago, buckshot said:

I'm fairly certain that he did not enjoy seeing other people winning or being honored. I'm somewhat certain he thought he was going to a WWE event and that he'd be brought into the ring and honored for making their HoF. I'm 100% certain that at some point he told the people around him that if he had wrestled he'd have won all ten weights every year and would have been his own coach. I also suspect that he claimed that Trump University has more titles than PSU does in the last decade.

One of my favorite lines was when he said he was the best baseball player in New York when he was in high school.  I couldnt believe the interviewer didn’t break down laughing on the spot.

The strange thing about it is that with all the stuff he brags about that is ridiculous,  by comparison he doesn't do that much about golf, which others, including real golfers, have said he was very good at when he was younger.

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I was there… nothing to see here folks. If you’re triggered by a former President attending a sporting event at the invitation of the mayor of a city, in a state that supports that former president,  then you really need to  dig down deep and summon those lessons you learned from wrestling…if you in fact wrestled… because I’m guessing this won’t be the last time a former president attends a major sporting event. 

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1 minute ago, dragit said:

It should be noted that he was going to go in 2020 before covid canceled the tournament last minute and without any indictment looming.

Nobody really knows why anyone does anything.

Are the choices of politicians influenced by political considerations?  Yes, that we do know, but we don't withhold respect for the office (or in the case of POTUS the former office) based on that inference, or not being able to ascertain the full calculus of motives.

And I haven't heard anyone report that he comported himself inappropriately or with the unfortunate frequent bluster that bothers so many and is the cause of many of his problems; in fact, it sounds like he said nothing over any sort of microphone, politlely acknowledged an intro over the PA, interacted with people who interacted with him, and watched ten terrific wrestling matches.  

Under these circumstances, I don't find disappointment with any winners shaking hands with the former president on their special night.  

I agree that you should respect the office but I think it's a two-way street that includes doing what every other POTUS in history has done and stepped down when his time was up. In his case he's still touring the country and claiming to be the rightful POTUS while working to divide Americans and actively rooting for our country to fail because he thinks it would be good for him politically. So since he has shown zero respect for the office, American traditions and our laws I don't believe he deserves anybody's respect. Just think of how many lives have been ruined just because of the election lies he told, he should be ashamed of himself for turning decent people into felons solely because they believed his lies. When you hear stories about kids not having their mother or father around because evil Joe Biden is holding them as political prisoners just know that none of them would be in jail if he had just done what countless better men than him have done and conceded the election.

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10 minutes ago, buckshot said:

I agree that you should respect the office but I think it's a two-way street that includes doing what every other POTUS in history has done and stepped down when his time was up. In his case he's still touring the country and claiming to be the rightful POTUS while working to divide Americans and actively rooting for our country to fail because he thinks it would be good for him politically. So since he has shown zero respect for the office, American traditions and our laws I don't believe he deserves anybody's respect. Just think of how many lives have been ruined just because of the election lies he told, he should be ashamed of himself for turning decent people into felons solely because they believed his lies. When you hear stories about kids not having their mother or father around because evil Joe Biden is holding them as political prisoners just know that none of them would be in jail if he had just done what countless better men than him have done and conceded the election.

I agree with you 100% but sadly we're in the minority here. I'm gonna get dragged to hell here but I swear those champions who rushed over to shake hands with him now have a stain on them that won't wash off. It's not like some random politician who we happen to disagree with, it's a man who actively continues to try to undermine our democracy. Acknowledging that makes us snowflakes? well ok then let it snow. 

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15 minutes ago, dragit said:

It should be noted that he was going to go in 2020 before covid canceled the tournament last minute and without any indictment looming.

Nobody really knows why anyone does anything.

Are the choices of politicians influenced by political considerations?  Yes, that we do know, but we don't withhold respect for the office (or in the case of POTUS the former office) based on that inference, or not being able to ascertain the full calculus of motives.

And I haven't heard anyone report that he comported himself inappropriately or with the unfortunate frequent bluster that bothers so many and is the cause of many of his problems; in fact, it sounds like he said nothing over any sort of microphone, politlely acknowledged an intro over the PA, interacted with people who interacted with him, and watched ten terrific wrestling matches.  

Under these circumstances, I don't find disappointment with any winners shaking hands with the former president on their special night.  

I agree with everything in your post, with the exception of the "respect for the office" part.

Trump is no longer the President. He continues to make claims otherwise, which we may or may not believe. Regardless, the fact is that he is no longer in the office - and is no longer eligible for the "respect for the office" consideration.

Discussing Nixon's Watergate scandal, Clinton's Monica scandal, Reagan's Iran Contra scandal, etc. are all fair game. We needn't be concerned about their previous position when discussing those scandals. Trump is no different.

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12 minutes ago, buckshot said:

I agree that you should respect the office but I think it's a two-way street that includes doing what every other POTUS in history has done and stepped down when his time was up. In his case he's still touring the country and claiming to be the rightful POTUS while working to divide Americans and actively rooting for our country to fail because he thinks it would be good for him politically. So since he has shown zero respect for the office, American traditions and our laws I don't believe he deserves anybody's respect. Just think of how many lives have been ruined just because of the election lies he told, he should be ashamed of himself for turning decent people into felons solely because they believed his lies. When you hear stories about kids not having their mother or father around because evil Joe Biden is holding them as political prisoners just know that none of them would be in jail if he had just done what countless better men than him have done and conceded the election.

I truly respect your views and think they are well put and wouldn't bother disputing that the president in question smashed for the worse many norms of comportment. 

But lots of people think that presidents ruined their families' lives with what they think were indefensible decisions about all kinds of things, including wars and draconian crime bills.  Where is the dividing line when a president is treated as per se not deserving of the respect we give other occupants of the office, when they are at a public event and behaving appropriately. 

All sides are in a bad spiral of per se judgments about politicians on the other side of our fence that isn't helping people on either side of the fence.

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7 minutes ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

I agree with everything in your post, with the exception of the "respect for the office" part.

Trump is no longer the President. He continues to make claims otherwise, which we may or may not believe. Regardless, the fact is that he is no longer in the office - and is no longer eligible for the "respect for the office" consideration.

Discussing Nixon's Watergate scandal, Clinton's Monica scandal, Reagan's Iran Contra scandal, etc. are all fair game. We needn't be concerned about their previous position when discussing those scandals. Trump is no different.

I'm going to argue with your points to a degree but think your post is very well taken.

Particularly with respect for that office, I think we've always felt that its former occupants were entitled to a degree of "respect the office not the person" as well, since they were not only the head of government but in our system also the head of state.

100% agree that a president's scandals or bad stewardship or bad behavior is fair game, both in and out of office, and that Trump's conduct between election day and inauguration day sits very high on any such list, and I would further point out that he has uniquely persisted in the conduct that he is criticized for during his post-presidency.

But if he goes to a public event and keeps his mouth shut and doesn't perpetuate said fair game behavior when he's there, I'm fine with him being recognized over the PA and the participants in the event shaking hands with the former head of state for the U.S. if they choose to do so, and think that such a choice is appropriate under the circumstances. 

This former president has a track record of respecting the sport, something I appreciate even as I note the irony that, in my opinion, the people like Dan Gable and Jim Jordan whom he has praised and whom in turn speak well of him have the sorts of personal characteristics that he hasn't shown.

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2 minutes ago, dragit said:

I'm going to argue with your points to a degree but think your post is very well taken.

Particularly with respect for that office, I think we've always felt that its former occupants were entitled to a degree of "respect the office not the person" as well, since they were not only the head of government but in our system also the head of state.

100% agree that a president's scandals or bad stewardship or bad behavior is fair game, both in and out of office, and that Trump's conduct between election day and inauguration day sits very high on any such list, and I would further point out that he has uniquely persisted in the conduct that he is criticized for during his post-presidency.

But if he goes to a public event and keeps his mouth shut and doesn't perpetuate said fair game behavior when he's there, I'm fine with him being recognized over the PA and the participants in the event shaking hands with the former head of state for the U.S. if they choose to do so, and think that such a choice is appropriate under the circumstances. 

This former president has a track record of respecting the sport, something I appreciate even as I note the irony that, in my opinion, the people like Dan Gable and Jim Jordan whom he has praised and whom in turn speak well of him have the sorts of personal characteristics that he hasn't shown.

I appreciate the discussion:

I firmly believe Trump is no longer eligible for the "respect for the office" position - he was disqualified from that the moment Biden took office. I don't believe there's any wiggle-room there. That is cut and dried.

I agree. Trump's choice to attend the NCAA tournament is fine. As I've said, none of us really know the motivation, nor should we need to. As far as I know, his attendance neither helped nor hurt anyone. No problem with it at all.

The 'track record' is going to be a bit of a discussion. I do think Trump has a track record of respecting WWE/fake-wrestling. I don't think he has an accurate perspective on what NCAA wrestling really is. While giving the award to Gable, Trump did mention that he thought he could take him... which made real wrestlers across the country cringe. Jim Jordan was the guy who put the event together - and Trump did praise him. Considering that Jordan has been a vocal supporter of Trump throughout his presidency, this smelled more like politics than it did like legitimate respect among peers. In any case, much is up for debate, but I don't see that Trump has any real track record to speak of with NCAA wrestling.

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11 minutes ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

I appreciate the discussion:

I firmly believe Trump is no longer eligible for the "respect for the office" position - he was disqualified from that the moment Biden took office. I don't believe there's any wiggle-room there. That is cut and dried.

I agree. Trump's choice to attend the NCAA tournament is fine. As I've said, none of us really know the motivation, nor should we need to. As far as I know, his attendance neither helped nor hurt anyone. No problem with it at all.

The 'track record' is going to be a bit of a discussion. I do think Trump has a track record of respecting WWE/fake-wrestling. I don't think he has an accurate perspective on what NCAA wrestling really is. While giving the award to Gable, Trump did mention that he thought he could take him... which made real wrestlers across the country cringe. Jim Jordan was the guy who put the event together - and Trump did praise him. Considering that Jordan has been a vocal supporter of Trump throughout his presidency, this smelled more like politics than it did like legitimate respect among peers. In any case, much is up for debate, but I don't see that Trump has any real track record to speak of with NCAA wrestling.

Back at you on appreciating the discussion.

To me, if President Obama or President Bush went to the NCAA swimming, tennis, or gymnastics finals I'd think it'd make sense for them to be acknowledged over the PA and for competitors to shake hands and take a picture.  They wouldn't play "Hail to the Chief" (I assume they didn't in Tulsa) or do any of the things that are protocol for the sitting president.  But for a non-revenue sport to have a former president come to the final as a fan, and for that to be recognized and appreciated by the organizers, fans, and participants, that's what I mean by respect for the (formerly held) office.  And, again, the fact that he was going to go in 2020 before the cancellation informs some of my thinking here.

With respect to your last paragraph, it gets to some of the same points as the last paragraph of my post that you were responding to.  And that really was brutal when he said (or asked, can't remember) that about Gable.  Gable's flat retort without a laugh or smile put it in its place as I recall.  But, again, politicians make political calculations.  That doesn't detract from the honor that Gable received from the head of state, just like it doesn't detract from knighthoods in the UK.  We recognize that the subjective choices behind a subjective award are fallible, but it we think that Dan Gable is a worthy recipient, we're glad he got it.  I can name several things Trump did (and other presidents, too) that I was positive he didn't do based on the reason I thought he should have done it, but which I think produced good outcomes, so I take the good outcome when I can get it.

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22 minutes ago, dragit said:

Back at you on appreciating the discussion.

To me, if President Obama or President Bush went to the NCAA swimming, tennis, or gymnastics finals I'd think it'd make sense for them to be acknowledged over the PA and for competitors to shake hands and take a picture.  They wouldn't play "Hail to the Chief" (I assume they didn't in Tulsa) or do any of the things that are protocol for the sitting president.  But for a non-revenue sport to have a former president come to the final as a fan, and for that to be recognized and appreciated by the organizers, fans, and participants, that's what I mean by respect for the (formerly held) office.  And, again, the fact that he was going to go in 2020 before the cancellation informs some of my thinking here.

With respect to your last paragraph, it gets to some of the same points as the last paragraph of my post that you were responding to.  And that really was brutal when he said (or asked, can't remember) that about Gable.  Gable's flat retort without a laugh or smile put it in its place as I recall.  But, again, politicians make political calculations.  That doesn't detract from the honor that Gable received from the head of state, just like it doesn't detract from knighthoods in the UK.  We recognize that the subjective choices behind a subjective award are fallible, but it we think that Dan Gable is a worthy recipient, we're glad he got it.  I can name several things Trump did (and other presidents, too) that I was positive he didn't do based on the reason I thought he should have done it, but which I think produced good outcomes, so I take the good outcome when I can get it.

Hmmm... up until the last post, 'dragit' bot was doing fairly well.

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7 hours ago, PortaJohn said:

image.thumb.png.9896c44b48e3ca2412e31f63613c872f.png

The thing that stands out in this pic are the cowboy hats. Do OSU fans show up dressed as their mascot? 
 

Also, there’s a guy 6 rows behind and a couple seats to the right of Trump who didn’t get the memo on how to do the wave (or got a very outdated memo). 

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7 hours ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

Former president attended the tournament, that is clear.

Was it a PR move? Was he showing respect for wrestling? Was he boosting morale for a group he thinks will protest for him after he's arrested on Tuesday (according to him)? Was he sincerely interested in following the wrestlers' performance? Did he really pay attention to any of the matches at all?

Meh - nobody really knows.

 

At least some of the wrestlers went for photo-ops with him, that is also clear.

Did they support him? Did they just want to get a photo-op with someone famous? Did someone else encourage them to do it even if they didn't care? Did they want to participate in his election campaign? Did they want a photo before he is arrested and put in jail? 

Meh - nobody really knows.

now explain obracketology

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7 hours ago, buckshot said:

I'm fairly certain that he did not enjoy seeing other people winning or being honored. I'm somewhat certain he thought he was going to a WWE event and that he'd be brought into the ring and honored for making their HoF. I'm 100% certain that at some point he told the people around him that if he had wrestled he'd have won all ten weights every year and would have been his own coach. I also suspect that he claimed that Trump University has more titles than PSU does in the last decade.

im so sorry this happened to you

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7 hours ago, buckshot said:

I agree that you should respect the office but I think it's a two-way street that includes doing what every other POTUS in history has done and stepped down when his time was up. In his case he's still touring the country and claiming to be the rightful POTUS while working to divide Americans and actively rooting for our country to fail because he thinks it would be good for him politically. So since he has shown zero respect for the office, American traditions and our laws I don't believe he deserves anybody's respect. Just think of how many lives have been ruined just because of the election lies he told, he should be ashamed of himself for turning decent people into felons solely because they believed his lies. When you hear stories about kids not having their mother or father around because evil Joe Biden is holding them as political prisoners just know that none of them would be in jail if he had just done what countless better men than him have done and conceded the election.

im so sorry this is happening to you 

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7 hours ago, Bardamu911 said:

I agree with you 100% but sadly we're in the minority here. I'm gonna get dragged to hell here but I swear those champions who rushed over to shake hands with him now have a stain on them that won't wash off. It's not like some random politician who we happen to disagree with, it's a man who actively continues to try to undermine our democracy. Acknowledging that makes us snowflakes? well ok then let it snow. 

a stain... out damned spot!!

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7 hours ago, dragit said:

One of my favorite lines was when he said he was the best baseball player in New York when he was in high school.  I couldnt believe the interviewer didn’t break down laughing on the spot.

The strange thing about it is that with all the stuff he brags about that is ridiculous,  by comparison he doesn't do that much about golf, which others, including real golfers, have said he was very good at when he was younger.

Really? He is infamous for both his lying about golf and his cheating while playing golf.  The most recent laugh-fest was his claiming he won his club Senior championship.  When it was pointed out that he wasn't even there on the first day of the tournament, he said that he played a round prior to that and used that round for his tournament score.

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